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What are you talking about? The translators say "even as" or "just as." Show a translation which says that the Son is to be honored "less than" the Father. Even the New World Translation which is anti-trinitarian says "JUST AS."
First, the Father WAS (not is) greater than the Son. The 'is' is what was true THEN but not now. The Son went back to where He was before when He was equal.
Second, Jesus contradicts you. He said that the Father has committed ALL judgment to Him in order that ALL men should honor the Son "EVEN AS" they honor the Father. To honor the Son a little is to honor the Father a little. To honor the Son above all is to honor the Father above all. An elderly man as yourself should not resist statements that even a child can understand.
And the Son had EQUAL honor given Him. So pay it!!
The degree of honor you render to the Father is contingent upon the degree of honor you render to the Son. You are in disobedience my man!
Wile, your misunderstand me and the scriptures. We are to honor both, but the father IS greater, not WAS greater. Jesus was never equal to his father.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
WHO exalted Jesus? His God
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
WHO does Jesus say is God?
Eph 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Eph 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
WHO is the HE? The Father
Rom 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
The Holy Bible, New International Version.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom n and revelation, so that you may know him better. NIV
Ro 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,
Ro 15:6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Where is the equality friend?
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
ONE GOD AND ONE LORD.
This is what this elderly man has be previliged to learn. Listen to God's word, not your preconceived notions that your church is right.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Sure, yet Jesus was already ONE with the FATHER from eternity, not physical birth.
Oatmeal may be good, but it is not God's revelation of Himself....... do not take nor eat of this variety of godly revelation.
Friend, I agree to a point. The pre exsistant spirit that Jesus had was a creation of the Father. Let me tell you why I think this:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
This spirit was an image or form of God, not God. It was created, the first of creation. Now this is just my thoughts not no one really knows. This spiritual image of God being helped his father to create. By now your maybe thinking I'm a kook, you may be right. But it seems to fit the NT quite well when we understand that Jesus had not only his own spirit in him, but the spirit of his Father. He would be very GODLIKE. The fly in the ointment for trinity folks is that Jesus has a God and Jesus says there is only ONE God. So maybe my thoughts are not off base. If Jesus was God he would not have a God. He was one with God in many ways, but they are TWO beings not one.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
The Father has elevated the Son to Lord of ALL friend. The Father says every knee will bow to him. My knees hurt, but they reach the floor when I pray to the Father in Jesus's name.
I have shown you many verses in the past where your Greek does not match the translators, but I believe you are sincere in your effort to do so. Your just a misguided person Apple7.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
The Father has elevated the Son to Lord of ALL friend.
Above God the Spirit?
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The Father says every knee will bow to him. My knees hurt, but they reach the floor when I pray to the Father in Jesus's name.
So, you are still praying to Jesus.
Thus, there are two Gods that you pray to.
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I have shown you many verses in the past where your Greek does not match the translators, but I believe you are sincere in your effort to do so. Your just a misguided person Apple7.
You already admitted to not knowing any Greek, pops.
How then could you have ever shown where the Greek does not match English renderings?
All you have are foolish empty assertions at this stage of your life...
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
April 26th, 2012, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
The Son was IN the Father too. So your one sided 'in' principle is false because the 'in' principle was reciprocal. Jesus said that the mighty works He done was the result of the Father being in Him and His being in the Father (John 10:37-38).
Do you know what it means to be IN the Father?
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A half truth is a FULL lie!
Then tell the other half.
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Where did you get this? Paul said that Jesus preexisted as God but made Himself nothing and then God exalted Him again (Philippians 2:5-11). Tell the WHOLE story!
That is not a half truth, it is a full lie.
A God can not make Himself to be nothing. What sort of God do you serve?
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I may speak if others are posting that the Son is to be honored less than the Father. If you don't want to hear from me then don't invite my responses by posting your views.
But I'll let that slide because you have soooo much to learn.
I do NOT have a sour attitude. I only tell it like it is. I was brought up in an outspoken family but no sour attitudes just outspoken. Can you handle it?
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There are a lot of men and women that are superior to me.
So Christ is superior to you as another man may be even though God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name which is ABOVE every name? Philippians 2:9
Paul said that God exalted Him so that every tongue should confess that Jesus is "Lord" (YHWH) to the glory of God the Father. Paul cited Isaiah 45:23-24 which says "YHWH."
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God is my savior
Jesus Christ is my savior,
It is good that you confess Jesus as your Savior. But why do you confess Jesus as your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said, "Besides me there is no savior"? Isaiah 43:11
In the next breath Goel whom you say is the Father said that besides Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). To you this means that Jesus is not God. So how can you say that Jesus is your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said that there is no Savior besides Himself?
Help us out here. Help us understand anti-trin logic. Tell us how the term "besides Me there is no God" must exclude Jesus but the term "besides me there is no savior" may include Jesus.
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There have been many God sent saviors throughout history.
How many of these so called "saviors" were called "the SOURCE of eternal salvation"? Hebrews 5:9 NASB
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God is the source of salvation but not the sole agent of salvation.
A Jewish author of a new testament book disagrees with you. He said that JESUS is the "SOURCE" of eternal salvation. Hebrews 5:9 NASB
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If you don't calm down, you are going to get an ulcer.
Thanks for your concern but outspoken does not equal upset. Most of my family is outspoken. It's just our nature and none of us have ever had an ulcer. I'm fine.
Btw, are you aware that the Person who said "besides me there is NO Savior" and also said, "besides Me there is NO God" is Goel which means "blood relative-redeemer?
Who was Israel's blood relative and redeemer? Hint: Not the Father!
Orthodoxy is just the Tyranny of the Majority, a Spiritual Despotism where accepted doctrine is Sacred, Untouchable self-evident truth no matter how absurd it may be.
You already admitted to not knowing any Greek, pops.
How then could you have ever shown where the Greek does not match English renderings?
All you have are foolish empty assertions at this stage of your life...
Read my post friend. I pray to the Father in Jesus name. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and I. I pray to my God through my Lord.
No, I do not know any Greek, I wish I did, but I have the word of God from about 20 teams of highly educated translators. Plus I have many books and even some traditional church memories. So I am quite at ease with my faith friend. Not knowing Greek is no big deal, most in the faith do not.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Read my post friend. I pray to the Father in Jesus name. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and I. I pray to my God through my Lord.
Scripture tells us that Jesus' name is the same as the Father's.
Thus...you are praying to Jesus when you pray to the Father.
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No, I do not know any Greek, I wish I did, but I have the word of God from about 20 teams of highly educated translators. Plus I have many books and even some traditional church memories. So I am quite at ease with my faith friend. Not knowing Greek is no big deal, most in the faith do not.
These 'translators' happen to be Trinitarian, pops.
Once again...you have no support for your uni-position.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
April 27th, 2012, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
I do NOT have a sour attitude. I only tell it like it is. I was brought up in an outspoken family but no sour attitudes just outspoken. Can you handle it?
So Christ is superior to you as another man may be even though God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name which is ABOVE every name? Philippians 2:9
Paul said that God exalted Him so that every tongue should confess that Jesus is "Lord" (YHWH) to the glory of God the Father. Paul cited Isaiah 45:23-24 which says "YHWH."
It is good that you confess Jesus as your Savior. But why do you confess Jesus as your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said, "Besides me there is no savior"? Isaiah 43:11
In the next breath Goel whom you say is the Father said that besides Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). To you this means that Jesus is not God. So how can you say that Jesus is your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said that there is no Savior besides Himself?
Help us out here. Help us understand anti-trin logic. Tell us how the term "besides Me there is no God" must exclude Jesus but the term "besides me there is no savior" may include Jesus.
How many of these so called "saviors" were called "the SOURCE of eternal salvation"? Hebrews 5:9 NASB
A Jewish author of a new testament book disagrees with you. He said that JESUS is the "SOURCE" of eternal salvation. Hebrews 5:9 NASB
Thanks for your concern but outspoken does not equal upset. Most of my family is outspoken. It's just our nature and none of us have ever had an ulcer. I'm fine.
Btw, are you aware that the Person who said "besides me there is NO Savior" and also said, "besides Me there is NO God" is Goel which means "blood relative-redeemer?
Who was Israel's blood relative and redeemer? Hint: Not the Father!
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I do NOT have a sour attitude. I only tell it like it is. I was brought up in an outspoken family but no sour attitudes just outspoken. Can you handle it?
Actually you do. You could renew your mind to God's word that would help your disposition.
You are outspoken.
Any one can quote scripture and give their opinions.
You do that quite well
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So Christ is superior to you as another man may be even though God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name which is ABOVE every name? Philippians 2:9
Yes, you are catching on!
Bravo!
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Paul said that God exalted Him so that every tongue should confess that Jesus is "Lord" (YHWH) to the glory of God the Father. Paul cited Isaiah 45:23-24 which says "YHWH."
Isaiah 45:23-24
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."
Surely, since we are to honor the son just as we honor the Father, this makes sense.
Since God is the Father of Jesus Christ, no one could honor the son, except in anticipation of his coming, the Father came first, the son did the Father's will so God highly exalted him.
Who gets the glory? Not Jesus Christ, but God the Father.
Philippians 2:11
"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
It is perfectly natural the son should have the same name as the Father.
Who do did your father name you after?
The road runner?
No, he named you coyote, so you could have the same name as your dad.
Why do you trins always complicate stuff with your vain imaginations?
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It is good that you confess Jesus as your Savior. But why do you confess Jesus as your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said, "Besides me there is no savior"? Isaiah 43:11
Who is "Goel"?
You still ignore Nehemiah 9:27
"Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies."
why is that?
It doesn't fit your theology, does it?
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In the next breath Goel whom you say is the Father said that besides Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). To you this means that Jesus is not God. So how can you say that Jesus is your Savior when Goel whom you say is the Father said that there is no Savior besides Himself?
So who is this "Goel"?
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Help us out here. Help us understand anti-trin logic. Tell us how the term "besides Me there is no God" must exclude Jesus but the term "besides me there is no savior" may include Jesus.
I have made it clear, but since you do not wish to learn, you lose.
Come up with something that makes scriptural sense.
Please explain who Goel is?
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
Last edited by oatmeal; April 27th, 2012 at 05:06 PM.
Reason: Hit the wrong button
"A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away...."
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