[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

None at all. But it does take a number of amino acids. A little phosphoric acid doesn't hurt, either.

The inorganic polymerization of amino acids into proteins through the formation of peptide bonds was thought to occur only at temperatures over 140°C. However, the biochemist Sidney Walter Fox and his co-workers discovered that phosphoric acid acted as a catalyst for this reaction. They were able to form protein-like chains from a mixture of 18 common amino acids at only 70°C in the presence of phosphoric acid, and dubbed these protein-like chains proteinoids. Fox later found proteinoids similar to those he had created in his laboratory in lava and cinders from Hawaiian volcanic vents and determined that the amino acids present polymerized due to the heat of escaping gases and lava. Other catalysts have since been found; one of them, amidinium carbodiimide, is formed in primitive Earth experiments and is effective in dilute aqueous solutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoid

So you think life was first produced in a laboratory.

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

That's the key thing.

What? What's the "key thing". Your post had nothing to do with what I said.

The simplest cell structure is the one that would have had to appear first. The cell membrane is a simple phospholipid bilayer, which spontaneously forms enclosed vesicles.

In a lab, right?

It's one of the most persuasive arguments for abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis.

[Flipper]

I'm thinking that Bob and Don Johnson are overstating the case somewhat by insisting that DNA is a digital language/computer program.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
How many proteins does it take to make a protein?

None at all. But it does take a number of amino acids. A little phosphoric acid doesn't hurt, either.

The inorganic polymerization of amino acids into proteins through the formation of peptide bonds was thought to occur only at temperatures over 140°C. However, the biochemist Sidney Walter Fox and his co-workers discovered that phosphoric acid acted as a catalyst for this reaction. They were able to form protein-like chains from a mixture of 18 common amino acids at only 70°C in the presence of phosphoric acid, and dubbed these protein-like chains proteinoids. Fox later found proteinoids similar to those he had created in his laboratory in lava and cinders from Hawaiian volcanic vents and determined that the amino acids present polymerized due to the heat of escaping gases and lava. Other catalysts have since been found; one of them, amidinium carbodiimide, is formed in primitive Earth experiments and is effective in dilute aqueous solutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoid

So you think life was first produced in a laboratory.

Read the cite. Turns out small proteins occur naturally, on volcanic rocks. Some were found in the Murchison meteorite, including amino acids not found on Earth, so we know they aren't contaminants.

Barbarian observes:
That's the key thing. The simplest cell structure is the one that would have had to appear first. The cell membrane is a simple phospholipid bilayer, which spontaneously forms enclosed vesicles. It's one of the most persuasive arguments for abiogenesis.

What? What's the "key thing".

I restored the part you cut out. Better now?

Your post had nothing to do with what I said.

You asked how the first cell originated. I pointed out that the simplest organelle in the cell is the one that would have to be the first. That's a pretty good bit of evidence.

In a lab, right?

Nothing magic in a lab. And phospholipids can form and persist in nature, so long as no bacteria gobble them up. So they would accumulate before living things formed.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Flipper

I'm thinking that Bob and Don Johnson are overstating the case somewhat by insisting that DNA is a digital language/computer program.

I think you ran out of intelligent things to contribute about 4 years ago...

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Barbarian observes: How many proteins does it take to make a protein? None at all. But it does take a number of amino acids. A little phosphoric acid doesn't hurt, either. B]The inorganic polymerization of amino acids into proteins through the formation of peptide bonds was thought to occur only at temperatures over 140°C. However, the biochemist Sidney Walter Fox and his co-workers discovered that phosphoric acid acted as a catalyst for this reaction. They were able to form protein-like chains from a mixture of 18 common amino acids at only 70°C in the presence of phosphoric acid, and dubbed these protein-like chains proteinoids. Fox later found proteinoids similar to those he had created in his laboratory in lava and cinders from Hawaiian volcanic vents and determined that the amino acids present polymerized due to the heat of escaping gases and lava. Other catalysts have since been found; one of them, amidinium carbodiimide, is formed in primitive Earth experiments and is effective in dilute aqueous solutions.url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoid[/url][/b]

Dementia kicking in? You already said all this.

Read the cite. Turns out small proteins occur naturally, on volcanic rocks. Some were found in the Murchison meteorite, including amino acids not found on Earth, so we know they aren't contaminants.

Turns out those aren't proteins.

Barbarian observes:That's the key thing. The simplest cell structure is the one that would have had to appear first. The cell membrane is a simple phospholipid bilayer, which spontaneously forms enclosed vesicles. It's one of the most persuasive arguments for abiogenesis.

I restored the part you cut out. Better now?

No. Try something that isn't a non-sequitur.

You asked how the first cell originated. I pointed out that the simplest organelle in the cell is the one that would have to be the first. That's a pretty good bit of evidence.

That's a nice story. Stories aren't evidence if you want to be rational and scientific.

Nothing magic in a lab.

Who said there was?

And phospholipids can form and persist in nature

From what? Proteins, right?

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence)

Dementia kicking in? You already said all this.

No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Turns out those aren't proteins. :dizzy

That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)

Who said there was? From what? Proteins, right?

Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence) No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Scientists can make things that are a little bit like proteins in a lab. What is it that I do not want to be true?

That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

And yet none of the ones synthesised are proteins.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

Do you?

"Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis..."

Wiki.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

None at all. But it does take a number of amino acids. A little phosphoric acid doesn't hurt, either.

Aren't proteins assembled inside of living cells by molecular machinery? I thought this was what the 150 proteins were referring to. I didn't take it to mean the ingredients.

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence)
No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Scientists can make things that are a little bit like proteins in a lab.

And nature can make things that are proteins, in abiotic ways.

What is it that I do not want to be true?

God's creation, for one.

Barbarian observes:
That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

And yet none of the ones synthesised are proteins.

But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

Do you?

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

Stipe stumbles a bit:

"Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis..."

Let's take a look...

Nature: 266, 78 - 80 (03 March 1977)
Synthesis of phospholipids and membranes in prebiotic conditions

It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?



W. R. HARGREAVES, S. J. MULVIHILL & D. W. DEAMER

Department of Zoology, University of California, Davis, California 95616

IT is generally agreed that stable membranes were prerequisite to the assembly of the earliest self-replicating systems1–4. Phospholipids, which are ubiquitous in biological membranes and which self-assemble in aqueous environments into stable lipid bilayers and vesicles4, are obvious candidates for prebiotic membrane components. We report here the abiotic synthesis of various lipids, including membranogenic phospholipids.

[The Barbarian]

Aren't proteins assembled inside of living cells by molecular machinery?

Until recently, people thought so. Then they found short proteins in the Murchison meteorite, and it became clear that peptide bonds can form in the absence of all that stuff.

I thought this was what the 150 proteins were referring to. I didn't take it to mean the ingredients.

You're right. But in modern organisms, the process is very tightly controlled by a variety of means. Less so in more primitive organisms like bacteria, and apparently a lot simpler in the first living things.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence) No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Barbarian observes:That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

It is dementia.

You've said all this, remember?

But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

Proteinoids or peptides formed on "hot volcanic rocks" are proteins? Is that what you're claiming now?

Stipe stumbles a bit: Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

So when you said, "Proteins don't produce phospholipids", you were wrong, right? That was an overstatement, right?

Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?

Suddenly, when it suits them, the bible is a scientific text for evolutionists.

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)
Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

(Stipe dodges the question)

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

It is dementia.

You've got denial, probably not dementia.

Barbarian observes:
But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

Proteinoids or peptides formed on "hot volcanic rocks" are proteins?

Yep. Peptides or proteinoids are just short proteins.

Is that what you're claiming now?

Yep.

The distinction between proteins and peptides is their size. Peptides are in a sense small proteins, having molecular weights less than 10,000.
http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/facult...l/proteins.htm

They were able to form protein-like chains from a mixture of 18 common amino acids at only 70°C in the presence of phosphoric acid, and dubbed these protein-like chains proteinoids. Fox later found proteinoids similar to those he had created in his laboratory in lava and cinders from Hawaiian volcanic vents and determined that the amino acids present polymerized due to the heat of escaping gases and lava. Other catalysts have since been found; one of them, amidinium carbodiimide, is formed in primitive Earth experiments and is effective in dilute aqueous solutions.

When present in certain concentrations in aqueous solutions, proteinoids form small structures called microspheres or protocells. This is because some of the amino acids incorporated into proteinoid chains are more hydrophobic than others, and so proteinoids cluster together like droplets of oil in water. Many argue that these are not themselves alive in the traditional sense, but these structures exhibit many of the characteristics of cells accepted as living cells:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoid

(Stipe stumbles a bit: )

Barbarian suggests:
Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

So when you said, "Proteins don't produce phospholipids", you were wrong, right?

No. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Lipids and phosphate ions produce phospholipids. No amino acids in phospholipids.

Barbarian asks:
Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?

(Stipe dodges)

Suddenly, when it suits them, the bible is a scientific text for evolutionists.

Nope. Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Proteins don't produce phospholipids

I see. So when Wiki says "Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis...", you're taking some sort of pedantic route to avoid the fact that proteins are involved in the synthesis of phospholipids, right?

Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

That's a nice story, Barbarian.

So you have so protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents. Where is the evidence that these things that look like proteins turned into actual proteins and started evolving?

Guaranteed that once the temperature decreases, these "precursors to life" quickly break down, right?

Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that proteins don't make phospholipids)

I see. So when Wiki says "Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis...", you're taking some sort of pedantic route to avoid the fact that proteins are involved in the synthesis of phospholipids, right?

If your argument is that phosopholipids are made in cells, and cells are partially made of proteins, I would think you'd be the pedant in this case. Phosphate ions and lipids make phospholipids. And they don't need proteins at all to be produced.

(Barbarian cites research demonstrating the abiotic production of phospholipids)

It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

That's a nice story, Barbarian.

It has the virtue of being verified by research.

So you have so protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents.

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

Where is the evidence that these things that look like proteins turned into actual proteins

As you just learned, they are short proteins.

Guaranteed that once the temperature decreases, these "precursors to life" quickly break down, right?

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

Barbarian, regarding Stipe's unwillingness to accept that life was brought forth by the earth:
Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

[Stripe]

(Barbarian cites research demonstrating the abiotic production of phospholipids)It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.Barbarian, regarding Stipe's unwillingness to accept that life was brought forth by the earth:Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

If your argument is that phosopholipids are made in cells, and cells are partially made of proteins, I would think you'd be the pedant in this case. Phosphate ions and lipids make phospholipids. And they don't need proteins at all to be produced.

"My" argument? I'm just asking what you think of this Wiki quote. It says that proteins act in phospholipid synthesis.

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out. That's just a story you've invented.

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form. So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Please try to be more clear.

[The Barbarian]

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:
It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.

It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Don't think so. Can you show me that?