[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:It has the virtue of being verified by research.Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Try responding to the question. If you want to make a cell you need proteins to make prospholipids, right?

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

A cell uses proteins to make prospholipids.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

Those are peptides. Protein-like and similar, but smaller and not proteins. We need proteins.

And you also reckon phospholipids form in the same place. Are you saying phospholipids are proteins now? Or do they really both form together on hot volcanic rocks?

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

Great! And these formations can reproduce, can they?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth.

In the laboratory under carefully managed circumstances. And we're trying to figure out what you're saying about proteins and phospholipids on hot volcanic rocks. Stick to one story at a time, please. You'll be so much easier to understand then.

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

Originally Posted by Stripe

So you have some protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents.

Originally Posted by Barbarian

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

So now you're saying proteins form on hot volcanic rocks and they are called prospholipids, right?

[jeffblue101]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

One doesn't depend on the other. For example, if God just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested) it would be all the same to evolutionary theory.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say how life began. It assumes living things and describes how they change.

Your unbelievable Barbarian, your dishonesty knows no bounds. Have all these years of lying for Darwin destroyed any remaining remnant of intellectual integrity that you may had in the past. It is a fact that Darwin did not accept God creating the first life form, he only wrote that because he caved into political pressure.

secondly, evolutionary theory(whatever definition you want, since I know evolutionists will equivocate when given the chance.) may not deal with the the origin of life but the rulling paradigm amogsnt the majority of evolutionists is that such an explanation should be excluded as "unscientific" through philosophical fiat(methodical naturalism) , therefore making a naturalistic explanation the only "scientific" explanation. As such a naturalistic explanation is a necessary precursor to neo-darwinism.

[Flipper]

I think it's a bit rich of Bob Enyart to accuse Denver museum of misrepresentation when presumably he agreed to post the image that graces the original post on this thread.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone (atheist or otherwise) claim that Miller created life in a test tube. However, it's interesting evidence in favor of abiogenesis when it can be shown that the raw materials required in the form of complex organic chemicals are a spontaneous byproduct of reactions that occur under relatively simple conditions.

[The Barbarian]

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:
It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.

It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
One doesn't depend on the other. For example, if God just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested) it would be all the same to evolutionary theory.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say how life began. It assumes living things and describes how they change.

Your unbelievable Barbarian, your dishonesty knows no bounds.

Coming from you, that's kind of a compliment. Given your reputation, I'd be concerned if you said I was honest.

Have all these years of lying for Darwin destroyed any remaining remnant of intellectual integrity that you may had in the past. It is a fact that Darwin did not accept God creating the first life form, he only wrote that because he caved into political pressure.

Sorry, that story won't fly. He changed his opinion later, after he had become an agnostic, but that's not how it was when the book was published. You know that; I pointed it out to you.

Darwin was quite aware of the stir his book was going to cause, and you're trying to argue that he added his view about God in a later edition, because the reception wasn't good? The book was a great hit, well received by scientists, and went into mutiple printings. C'mon, Jeff.

secondly, evolutionary theory(whatever definition you want, since I know evolutionists will equivocate when given the chance.) may not deal with the the origin of life...

But being the dishonest person you are, you're going to try to argue it is, anyway.

but the rulling paradigm amogsnt the majority of evolutionists is that such an explanation should be excluded as "unscientific" through philosophical fiat(methodical naturalism) , therefore making a naturalistic explanation the only "scientific" explanation.

The ruling paradigm amongst the majority of "evolutionists" is that water is necessary for life, but that's not in the theory, either. C'mon, Jeff; do you really think you're that clever? Do you think everyone else is that dumb?

As Darwin's theory demonstrates, it's consistent with God poofing the first organisms into being. However, God is not consistent with that; He says the earth brought forth living things. So does abiogenesis.

Let God be God, Jeff.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Try responding to the question. If you want to make a cell you need proteins to make prospholipids, right?

Nope. They can form without any proteins at all. I showed you research verifying it.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

A cell uses proteins to make prospholipids.

The point is that phospholipids (note the spelling) can form in the absence of proteins.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

Those are peptides. Protein-like and similar, but smaller and not proteins.

You've been misled on that.

The size boundaries which distinguish peptides, polypeptides, and proteins are arbitrary. Long peptides such as amyloid beta can be considered proteins, whereas small proteins such as insulin can be considered peptides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide

And you also reckon phospholipids form in the same place. Are you saying phospholipids are proteins now?

(Barbarian checks) Nope. Never suggested it.

Barbarian observes:
You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

Great! And these formations can reproduce, can they?

They get larger as they incorporate more molecules. When they get to a certain size, they split into more than one. Some proteins also form vesicles like that, which also split if they grow too large.

Barbarian observes:
Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth.

In the laboratory under carefully managed circumstances.

As close as they could get to the conditions on the early Earth, yes.

And we're trying to figure out what you're saying about proteins and phospholipids on hot volcanic rocks.

It's a bit technical for you, I think. Just remember that both can form abiotically.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions. (themal vents)

So now you're saying proteins form on hot volcanic rocks and they are called prospholipids, right?

I guess if you can read the Bible to say that the firmament is the crust of the Earth, then it's not surprising that you'd get that from what I said.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.One way is on hot volcanic rocks.Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.It has the virtue of being verified by research.Barbarian observes:Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.One way is on hot volcanic rocks.(Barbarian checks) Nope. Never suggested it.Barbarian observes:Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earthBarbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions. (themal vents).

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

I have no idea what you're saying.

You're talking proteins, phospholipids and peptides. One or more of those you reckon can form on hot volcanic rocks. Which is it?

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Well, no. To have a cell you need a reproducing organism. If you have a cell membrane floating around you don't have a cell. Just because we can find calcium floating around, doesn't mean we have a chicken egg.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.Barbarian observes: You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

You can form something that kind of resembles the shell, but not really. Now you just need the white and the yolk.

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Nope. They can form without any proteins at all. I showed you research verifying it.

And yet, in a cell, they require proteins.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.The point is that phospholipids (note the spelling) can form in the absence of proteins.

Not in a cell.

You've been misled on that.

It's what you said.

The distinction between proteins and peptides is their size. Peptides are in a sense small proteins, having molecular weights less than 10,000. http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/facult...l/proteins.htm

There seems to be a way to go before you can make proteins for cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide

You need to talk specifics in this case rather than taking a few exceptions and thinking they are the rule.

They get larger as they incorporate more molecules. When they get to a certain size, they split into more than one. Some proteins also form vesicles like that, which also split if they grow too large.

Great!

As close as they could get to the conditions on the early Earth, yes.

1. How difficult could it be if the knew?
2. How did they know?

It's a bit technical for you, I think.

Perhaps you're just not explaining yourself with any clarity.

Just remember that both can form abiotically.

Not the ones in cells.

I guess if you can read the Bible to say that the firmament is the crust of the Earth, then it's not surprising that you'd get that from what I said.

The bible is a bit clearer about what happened and when than you are:

Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
...
6 Then God said, “Let there be [an expanse] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the [expanse], and divided the waters which were under the [expanse] from the waters which were above the [expanse]; and it was so. 8 And God called the [expanse] Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

God created a paradise for people to live upon and He called it Heaven. Seems pretty clear to me.