Slogan/motto:
Shouting at the world cause no one's listening...
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
Romney said he will appoint judges like:
Scalia
Thomas
Roberts
Alito
Romney says just about everything.....
I'd never vote for the guy but I find myself begging him to take a stand on something!! Even if it's the opposite of something I believe. I have found no evidence of him not taking both sides of an issue at some point.
The pain comes from knowing that we have never been safe, and therefore will never be safe again. It comes from knowing we can never be so ignorant again. It comes from knowing we can never be children again. Losing innocence. Remembering heaven. That was the essence of hell. -John Jakes
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
Romney's republican message to Obama
Regarding the economic mess a republican President caused
you are not getting us out of it fast enough.
-------------------
Obama's democratic message to Romney
You want to return to the economic policies that created the
economic mess we are slowly emerging out of.
Unfortunately as we're not emerging from the economic problems at all neither is particularly useful...
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
You prefer Judges who like Romney think "Corporation are people".
I prefer Judges who think like Obama who says "Corporations are not people, only people are people"
Then you're ignorant and don't understand what it would mean if people gave up their individual rights simply by organizing themselves in a particular legally recognized manner. Or to put it another way, you can't limit the speech rights of General Motors without equally limiting the ACLU and NACCP.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
Then you're ignorant and don't understand what it would mean if people gave up their individual rights simply by organizing themselves in a particular legally recognized manner. Or to put it another way, you can't limit the speech rights of General Motors without equally limiting the ACLU and NACCP.
No one will be giving up any rights if we stop pretending that corporations are people. Every single person in the corporation still has every right that they always had.
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
No one will be giving up any rights if we stop pretending that corporations are people. Every single person in the corporation still has every right that they always had.
So then you don't believe that the ACLU, NAACP, and other non-profit corporations, should posess the same rights to free speech, etc when working as group as their members do individually?
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandererInFog
So then you don't believe that the ACLU, NAACP, and other non-profit corporations, should posess the same rights to free speech, etc when working as group as their members do individually?
Are you choosing liberal leaning groups because you think PureX will think liberal groups should have the rights but conservative groups shouldn't?
I think this is an interesting and important topic. I tend to think money has a negative presence in politics. Both in elections and lobbying. Treating money as speech seems to be a dangerous road to take, as is treating corporations as people. I understand the logic that corporations are simply individuals that group together, but I think it has negative effects and I don't think taking away corporate personhood really changes the rights of the individuals.
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoney
Are you choosing liberal leaning groups because you think PureX will think liberal groups should have the rights but conservative groups shouldn't?
More to point out the full scope of the effects of it. When people talk about corporate personhood, their minds tend to go to Bank of America or similar entities and not to realize the full scope of what it entails.
Quote:
I think this is an interesting and important topic. I tend to think money has a negative presence in politics. Both in elections and lobbying. Treating money as speech seems to be a dangerous road to take, as is treating corporations as people.
It's a double-edged sword, because while it does have negative effects, it's also the only way the average person can even hope to be able to have some voice lobbying a distant Federal Govt.
Quote:
I understand the logic that corporations are simply individuals that group together, but I think it has negative effects and I don't think taking away corporate personhood really changes the rights of the individuals.
So how often do you get a chance to head up to Washington DC and lobby your congress people? The current system means you and people who support issues you care about can get together and fund having someone do so. Take away money as speech and corporate personhood and you lose even that nominal ability to lobby your government.
Now I would agree we've reached a point where our system of governance needs a major overhaul, including limiting the influence of certain industries, but I don't see eliminating corporate personhood, at least not by itself, actually accomplishing that.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandererInFog
More to point out the full scope of the effects of it. When people talk about corporate personhood, their minds tend to go to Bank of America or similar entities and not to realize the full scope of what it entails.
That's probably true.
Quote:
It's a double-edged sword, because while it does have negative effects, it's also the only way the average person can even hope to be able to have some voice lobbying a distant Federal Govt.
So how often do you get a chance to head up to Washington DC and lobby your congress people? The current system means you and people who support issues you care about can get together and fund having someone do so. Take away money as speech and corporate personhood and you lose even that nominal ability to lobby your government.
I don't go to DC to lobby at all. But I don't think I agree that that is the only way to make my voice heard. Especially in this day and age. How do you define "lobby"?
When you make speech money, then people with more money have more speech and when dealing with a democracy I think that has negative impacts. Everybody knows that money talks and can get things done. I think a democracy should have as level a playing field as possible. I'm not convinced we have that.
Quote:
Now I would agree we've reached a point where our system of governance needs a major overhaul, including limiting the influence of certain industries, but I don't see eliminating corporate personhood, at least not by itself, actually accomplishing that.
Well, I didn't suggest only getting rid of corporate personhood. But what measures would you suggest?
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
Reputation:
May 8th, 2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoney
I don't go to DC to lobby at all. But I don't think I agree that that is the only way to make my voice heard. Especially in this day and age. How do you define "lobby"?
I'm defining it here as bringing your concerns to the attention of your elected representatives. Doing so face to face is radically more effective than any other method, and as the average citizen will never get the opprotunnity to do so themselves, the best we can hope for is to do so by proxy. Take away the ability to speak via forming a entity to do so and we lose even that limited ability.
Quote:
When you make speech money, then people with more money have more speech and when dealing with a democracy I think that has negative impacts.
It absoutely has negative impacts, but under the present system the alternative is even worse. As when it comes to the distant, Federal government it will move the power to lobby into the hands of the even smaller group of those who are personally wealthy enough to lobby the government.
Quote:
When you make speech money, then people with more money have more speech and when dealing with a democracy I think that has negative impacts. Everybody knows that money talks and can get things done. I think a democracy should have as level a playing field as possible. I'm not convinced we have that.
But removing corporate personhood under the present system won't level speech rights. It just shifts them further towards the individually wealthy and the handful of corporations that currently control all of the US media.
Quote:
Well, I didn't suggest only getting rid of corporate personhood. But what measures would you suggest?
I don't think anything gets better until we devolve more power back to the state and local governments, where it's far easier for the average person to make their voice heard.
Even beyond how the huge population of house districts drowns out individual voices, after this last round of re-districting, things have been gerrymandered so badly that we're down to having less than 100 House seats which are going to be competitive in any given election. If you happen to live in any of the other 335+ districts, corporations as people or not, your vote doesn't matter anymore one way or the other.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
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