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A Question for Atheist -
April 29th, 2012, 01:39 PM
Since most scientist are certain that 96% of the universe is a mystery to us - how can you be so certain that God/Creator of the Universe does not exist?
And don't tell me that you are certain about the non-existence of God in the same way you are certain about the non-existence of the Easter Bunny. No one claims or believes that the Easter Bunny created the Universe.
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Composition of the Universe
4% ordinary matter
physical or corporeal substance in general, whether solid, liquid, or gaseous
The Periodic Table - all the known elements in (non-dark portion of) the universe organized http://www.webelements.com/
26% dark matter
hypothetical form of matter invisible to electromagnetic radiation, postulated to account for gravitational forces observed in the universe
70% dark energy
hypothetical force that affects the behavior of photons, counteracts gravity, and causes the universe to expand at an ever-increasing rate
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Dark secrets of the Universe
It’s perhaps natural that we don’t know much about how the Universe was created – after all, we were never there ourselves. But it’s surprising to realise that when it comes to the Universe today, we don’t necessarily have a much better knowledge of what is out there. In fact, astronomers and physicists have found that all we see in the Universe – planets, stars, galaxies – accounts for only a tiny 4% of it! In a way, it is not so much the visible things that define the Universe, but rather the void around them.
Cosmological and astrophysical observations indicate that most of the Universe is made up of invisible substances that do not emit electromagnetic radiation – that is, we cannot detect them directly through telescopes or similar instruments. We detect them only through their gravitational effects, which makes them very difficult to study. These mysterious substances are known as ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’. What they are and what role they played in the evolution of the Universe are a mystery, but within this darkness lie intriguing possibilities of hitherto undiscovered physics beyond the established Standard Model.
Dark matter
Dark matter makes up about 26% of the Universe. The first hint of its existence came in 1933, when astronomical observations and calculations of gravitational effects revealed that there must be more 'stuff' present in the Universe than telescopes could see.
Researchers now believe that the gravitational effect of dark matter makes galaxies spin faster than expected, and that its gravitational field deviates the light of objects behind it. Measurements of these effects show that dark matter exists, and they can be used to estimate the density of dark matter even though we cannot directly observe it. But what is dark matter? One idea is that it could contain ‘supersymmetric particles’ - hypothesized particles that are partners to those already known in the Standard Model. Experiments at the Large Hadron Collider may be able to find them.
Dark energy
Dark energy makes up approximately 70% of the Universe and appears to be associated with the vacuum in space. It is homogenously distributed throughout the Universe, not only in space but also in time - in other words, its effect is not diluted as the Universe expands.
The even distribution means that dark energy does not have any local gravitational effects, but rather a global effect on the Universe as a whole. This leads to a repulsive force, which tends to accelerate the expansion of the Universe. The rate of expansion and its acceleration can be measured by observations based on the Hubble law. These measurements, together with other scientific data, have confirmed the existence of dark energy and provide an estimate of just how much of this mysterious substance exists.
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At best if they are honest each Atheist should instead call themselves an Agnostic.
Slogan/motto:
Call me Anna, Velociraptor, excuse my manner, I'm having such a bad day. Woke this morning, with expectations of gaining nothing; I've learnt to trust my instincts.
Future Of The Left
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Plain and simply, science has presented theory free of the need of a prime mover like your god. They are currently still studying the issues you raised and are breaking it down bit by bit day by day. Why would they change their stances now? They've done pretty spiffy without resorting to GDI.
Since most scientist are certain that 96% of the universe is a mystery to us - how can you be so certain that God/Creator of the Universe does not exist?
This would be a self-contradictory statement. If we really didn't know that much, how would we ever be able to estimate that we didn't know that much?
I'm not an atheist, but if I were all I'd have to say is that the question of the origin of existence doesn't imply that there has to be an answer. And certainly not a "divine" answer. So there is no reason that I would consider that a "God" exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
At best if they are honest each Atheist should instead call themselves an Agnostic.
If you disagree - tell me why
Not necessarily. As I said, the question does not automatically imply that there has to be an answer. An atheist can simply decide that the question of origin is moot. Having done so, there is no impiracal argument left in favor of the existence of a "God".
Slogan/motto:
"The Chief End of Me Is To Love GOD & Enjoy Him Forever!"
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 02:12 PM
C.S. Lewis was an atheist who became a Christian,and became one of the most incredible writers for the sake of GOD'S EXISTENCE in the history of Christianity.
Since most scientist (sic) are certain that 96% of the universe is a mystery to us - how can you be so certain that God/Creator of the Universe does not exist?
… 26% dark matter … postulated to account for gravitational forces observed in the universe 70% dark energy … causes the universe to expand at an ever-increasing rate
Are you saying that “96%” which refers to poorly-understood effects seen in physics means that our knowledge is correspondingly 96% incomplete? In fact both of those effects, as your quotes show, are seen in very specialized studies in physics, and have not hampered out understanding of most of the sciences.
I see little in either the dark matter of the dark energy questions that has much bearing on scientific arguments about whether or not God exists.
Quote:
At best if they are honest each Atheist should instead call themselves an Agnostic.
Agnostic was not an option when I signed onto TOL. Not that it matters much, since I am moderately certain the Gods I have been told about by believers are not real.
Slogan/motto:
Science and the scientific method is the only reliable way to knowledge.
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
Since most scientist are certain that 96% of the universe is a mystery to us - how can you be so certain that God/Creator of the Universe does not exist?
And don't tell me that you are certain about the non-existence of God in the same way you are certain about the non-existence of the Easter Bunny. No one claims or believes that the Easter Bunny created the Universe.
----------
Composition of the Universe
4% ordinary matter
physical or corporeal substance in general, whether solid, liquid, or gaseous
The Periodic Table - all the known elements in (non-dark portion of) the universe organized http://www.webelements.com/
26% dark matter
hypothetical form of matter invisible to electromagnetic radiation, postulated to account for gravitational forces observed in the universe
70% dark energy
hypothetical force that affects the behavior of photons, counteracts gravity, and causes the universe to expand at an ever-increasing rate
--------------
Dark secrets of the Universe
It’s perhaps natural that we don’t know much about how the Universe was created – after all, we were never there ourselves. But it’s surprising to realise that when it comes to the Universe today, we don’t necessarily have a much better knowledge of what is out there. In fact, astronomers and physicists have found that all we see in the Universe – planets, stars, galaxies – accounts for only a tiny 4% of it! In a way, it is not so much the visible things that define the Universe, but rather the void around them.
Cosmological and astrophysical observations indicate that most of the Universe is made up of invisible substances that do not emit electromagnetic radiation – that is, we cannot detect them directly through telescopes or similar instruments. We detect them only through their gravitational effects, which makes them very difficult to study. These mysterious substances are known as ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’. What they are and what role they played in the evolution of the Universe are a mystery, but within this darkness lie intriguing possibilities of hitherto undiscovered physics beyond the established Standard Model.
Dark matter
Dark matter makes up about 26% of the Universe. The first hint of its existence came in 1933, when astronomical observations and calculations of gravitational effects revealed that there must be more 'stuff' present in the Universe than telescopes could see.
Researchers now believe that the gravitational effect of dark matter makes galaxies spin faster than expected, and that its gravitational field deviates the light of objects behind it. Measurements of these effects show that dark matter exists, and they can be used to estimate the density of dark matter even though we cannot directly observe it. But what is dark matter? One idea is that it could contain ‘supersymmetric particles’ - hypothesized particles that are partners to those already known in the Standard Model. Experiments at the Large Hadron Collider may be able to find them.
Dark energy
Dark energy makes up approximately 70% of the Universe and appears to be associated with the vacuum in space. It is homogenously distributed throughout the Universe, not only in space but also in time - in other words, its effect is not diluted as the Universe expands.
The even distribution means that dark energy does not have any local gravitational effects, but rather a global effect on the Universe as a whole. This leads to a repulsive force, which tends to accelerate the expansion of the Universe. The rate of expansion and its acceleration can be measured by observations based on the Hubble law. These measurements, together with other scientific data, have confirmed the existence of dark energy and provide an estimate of just how much of this mysterious substance exists.
------------------
At best if they are honest each Atheist should instead call themselves an Agnostic.
If you disagree - tell me why
I should imagine that no atheist would have a problem with god's existence if you showed them evidence for his existence. Since you haven't bothered why should they?
science has presented theory free of the need of a prime mover like your god.
A few scientists believe in a Creator
William H. Bragg (1862-1942)
"From religion comes a man's purpose; from science, his power to achieve it. Sometimes people ask if religion and science are not opposed to one another. They are: in the sense that the thumb and fingers of my hands are opposed to one another. It is an opposition by means of which anything can be grasped."
--British physicist, chemist, and mathematician. Awarded Nobel Prize in 1915
Wernher Von Braun (1912-1977)
"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
--German-American rocket scientist
Nevill Mott (1905-1996)
"Science can have a purifying effect on religion, freeing it from beliefs of a pre-scientific age and helping us to a truer conception of God. At the same time, I am far from believing that science will ever give us the answers to all our questions."
--English physicist, awarded Nobel Prize in 1977
Fred Hoyle (1915-2001)
"A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
--English mathematician and astronomer.
Walter Kohn (1923-)
"I am very much a scientist, and so I naturally have thought about religion also through the eyes of a scientist. When I do that, I see religion not denominationally, but in a more, let us say, deistic sense. I have been influence in my thinking by the writing of Einstein who has made remarks to the effect that when he contemplated the world he sensed an underlying Force much greater than any human force. I feel very much the same. There is a sense of awe, a sense of reverence, and a sense of great mystery."
--American theoretical physicist, awarded Nobel Prize in 1998
Charles Darwin (1809-1882)
"The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God."
--English naturalist credited with theory of evolution.
I should imagine that no atheist would have a problem with god's existence if you showed them evidence for his existence. Since you haven't bothered why should they?
1) OBJECTIVE REALITY – There is a near universal prevalence of religious faith in every human society
(remember, the exception does not disprove the rule – the exception confirms the rule)
2) THEORIES regarding the underlying reason for that objective reality (guesswork)
A) Non-supernatural explanation per the atheist
Religion evolved out of self-interest and the need for an above world umpire and guiding/binding set of rules.
B) Supernatural explanation per the theist and this semi-deist (me)
The result of a mental/spiritual vacuum in humans constructed by the Creator
3) MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION (based on guesswork)
A) Semi-Deism - I am not a pure deist because a pure deist is a complete disbeliever when it comes to any sort of divine intervention after creation, whereas I am more agnostic on that issue.
After a consideration of cause and effect and my theory that global truths are most likely the truest truths.
a) Explanation & Elaboration
The golden rule is proven true by its near universality
The golden rule (in some form or another) clearly is an intuitive, global truth
THE GOLDEN RULE
CHRISTIANITY- "DO TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU" LK 6:31
CONFUCIANISM-"DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULD NOT LIKE YOURSELF" (ANALECTS X11:2)
TAOISM- A GOOD MAN WILL "REGARD [OTHERS] GAINS AS IF THEY WERE HIS OWN AND THEIR LOSSES IN THE SAME WAY" (THAI SHANG, 3)
ZOROASTRIANISM-"THAT NATURE ONLY IS GOOD WHEN IT SHALL NOT DO TO ANOTHER WHATEVER IS NOT GOOD FOR ITS OWN SELF" (DEDISTAN-I-DINIK 94:4)
HINDUISM-"ONE SHOULD NEVER DO THAT TO ANOTHER WHICH ONE REGARDS AS INJURIOUS TO ONE'S OWN SELF. (ANUSHANA PARVA, 113:7)
JAINISM- ONE SHOULD GO ABOUT "TREATING ALL CREATURES IN THE WORLD AS HE HIMSELF WOULD BE TREATED" (KATANGA SUTRA, BK. 1, LECT. 11:33)
BUDDHISM-"AS A MOTHER CARES FOR HER SON, ALL HER DAYS, SO TOWARDS ALL LIVING THINGS A MAN'S MIND SHOULD BE ALL-EMBRACING" (SUTTA NIPATA, 149)
JUDAISM-"WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOURSELF DO NOT DO TO YOUR FELLOW MAN" (BABYLONIAN TALMUD, SHABBATH 31A)
ISLAM- MUHAMMAD SAID "NO MAN IS A TRUE BELIEVER UNLESS HE DESIRES FOR HIS BROTHER THAT WHICH HE DESIRES FOR HIMSELF" (IBN MADJA, INTRODUCTION 9)
(Adapted from FOUR VIEWS ON SALVATION IN A PLURALISTIC WORLD, editors dennis okholm and timothy phillips)
maybe the creator of the universe is to be found at the points where all religions converge.
A few scientists believe in a Creator
William H. Bragg (1862-1942) … Wernher Von Braun (1912-1977) … Nevill Mott (1905-1996) … Fred Hoyle (1915-2001) … Walter Kohn (1923-) … Charles Darwin (1809-1882)
None of whom had anything to do with Dark Energy or Dark Matter. I take your OP was just a con job, and not really what you wanted to discuss?
Plain and simply, science has presented theory free of the need of a prime mover like your god. They are currently still studying the issues you raised and are breaking it down bit by bit day by day. Why would they change their stances now? They've done pretty spiffy without resorting to GDI.
Not really.
Michael Shermer wrote an article in the May 2012 Scientific American, titled "Much Ado about Nothing." In it, his ignorance shows like a beacon on a hill on a clear night.
“Behind the barricades of pre-established structures, the foxes of the intellect may engage in clever reasoning, but the lion of Being continues to roar outside the gate.” ~ Tarthang Tulku
Last edited by Lost Comet; April 29th, 2012 at 04:50 PM.
Slogan/motto:
Science and the scientific method is the only reliable way to knowledge.
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
1) OBJECTIVE REALITY – There is a near universal prevalence of religious faith in every human society
(remember, the exception does not disprove the rule – the exception confirms the rule)
2) THEORIES regarding the underlying reason for that objective reality (guesswork)
A) Non-supernatural explanation per the atheist
Religion evolved out of self-interest and the need for an above world umpire and guiding/binding set of rules.
B) Supernatural explanation per the theist and this semi-deist (me)
The result of a mental/spiritual vacuum in humans constructed by the Creator
3) MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION (based on guesswork)
A) Semi-Deism - I am not a pure deist because a pure deist is a complete disbeliever when it comes to any sort of divine intervention after creation, whereas I am more agnostic on that issue.
After a consideration of cause and effect and my theory that global truths are most likely the truest truths.
a) Explanation & Elaboration
The golden rule is proven true by its near universality
The golden rule (in some form or another) clearly is an intuitive, global truth
THE GOLDEN RULE
CHRISTIANITY- "DO TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU" LK 6:31
CONFUCIANISM-"DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULD NOT LIKE YOURSELF" (ANALECTS X11:2)
TAOISM- A GOOD MAN WILL "REGARD [OTHERS] GAINS AS IF THEY WERE HIS OWN AND THEIR LOSSES IN THE SAME WAY" (THAI SHANG, 3)
ZOROASTRIANISM-"THAT NATURE ONLY IS GOOD WHEN IT SHALL NOT DO TO ANOTHER WHATEVER IS NOT GOOD FOR ITS OWN SELF" (DEDISTAN-I-DINIK 94:4)
HINDUISM-"ONE SHOULD NEVER DO THAT TO ANOTHER WHICH ONE REGARDS AS INJURIOUS TO ONE'S OWN SELF. (ANUSHANA PARVA, 113:7)
JAINISM- ONE SHOULD GO ABOUT "TREATING ALL CREATURES IN THE WORLD AS HE HIMSELF WOULD BE TREATED" (KATANGA SUTRA, BK. 1, LECT. 11:33)
BUDDHISM-"AS A MOTHER CARES FOR HER SON, ALL HER DAYS, SO TOWARDS ALL LIVING THINGS A MAN'S MIND SHOULD BE ALL-EMBRACING" (SUTTA NIPATA, 149)
JUDAISM-"WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOURSELF DO NOT DO TO YOUR FELLOW MAN" (BABYLONIAN TALMUD, SHABBATH 31A)
ISLAM- MUHAMMAD SAID "NO MAN IS A TRUE BELIEVER UNLESS HE DESIRES FOR HIS BROTHER THAT WHICH HE DESIRES FOR HIMSELF" (IBN MADJA, INTRODUCTION 9)
(Adapted from FOUR VIEWS ON SALVATION IN A PLURALISTIC WORLD, editors dennis okholm and timothy phillips)
maybe the creator of the universe is to be found at the points where all religions converge.
That's the problem, all of the religions don't converge at all. As I have said many times, I have traveled the world and all creation myths and god or gods are totally different. It seems to me that god or gods are primitive mans explanation for earthquakes, volcanoes, lightening, weather and 'good or bad things happening.' All they show is mans early ignorance of nature. Pattern forming creatures who will cling to myths when the future is uncertain.
Slogan/motto:
Hands that help are holier than lips that pray.
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphimsCherub
C.S. Lewis was an atheist who became a Christian,and became one of the most incredible writers for the sake of GOD'S EXISTENCE in the history of Christianity.
What does that have to do with anything?
I believe that the Universe is one being, all its parts are different expressions of the same energy,
and they are all in communication with each other, therefore parts of one organic whole.
This whole is in all its parts so beautiful, and is felt by me to be so intensely in earnest, that I am compelled to love it and to think of it as divine
- Robinson Jeffers
Slogan/motto:
Call me Anna, Velociraptor, excuse my manner, I'm having such a bad day. Woke this morning, with expectations of gaining nothing; I've learnt to trust my instincts.
Future Of The Left
Reputation:
April 29th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
A few scientists believe in a Creator
William H. Bragg (1862-1942)
"From religion comes a man's purpose; from science, his power to achieve it. Sometimes people ask if religion and science are not opposed to one another. They are: in the sense that the thumb and fingers of my hands are opposed to one another. It is an opposition by means of which anything can be grasped."
--British physicist, chemist, and mathematician. Awarded Nobel Prize in 1915
Wernher Von Braun (1912-1977)
"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
--German-American rocket scientist
Nevill Mott (1905-1996)
"Science can have a purifying effect on religion, freeing it from beliefs of a pre-scientific age and helping us to a truer conception of God. At the same time, I am far from believing that science will ever give us the answers to all our questions."
--English physicist, awarded Nobel Prize in 1977
Fred Hoyle (1915-2001)
"A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
--English mathematician and astronomer.
Walter Kohn (1923-)
"I am very much a scientist, and so I naturally have thought about religion also through the eyes of a scientist. When I do that, I see religion not denominationally, but in a more, let us say, deistic sense. I have been influence in my thinking by the writing of Einstein who has made remarks to the effect that when he contemplated the world he sensed an underlying Force much greater than any human force. I feel very much the same. There is a sense of awe, a sense of reverence, and a sense of great mystery."
--American theoretical physicist, awarded Nobel Prize in 1998
Charles Darwin (1809-1882)
"The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God."
--English naturalist credited with theory of evolution.
Lulz at Darwin (context, etc) and the choice of the word 'few'. Hilarious.
Michael Shermer wrote an article in the May 2012 Scientific American, titled "Much Ado about Nothing." In it, his ignorance shows like a beacon on a hill on a clear night.
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