ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
"A godlike creature?" So Almighty God gave a godlike creature the power to create all things and save mankind from their sins?
Why does the Father call the Son, "Oh God?"
Why does the OT say the Messiah will be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father? Isa.9:6-7
The Hebrew names aren't necessary to understand that Jesus is God, but for a skeptic it would certainly prove beneficial to know how Jesus is called by the names of Almighty God...both in the Old and New Testament. You could google it. Knowledge has increased and at the tips of your fingers. Your 20 translations won't show you the Hebrew names of God, but they are there for you to see.
He is the son, the ONLY begotten son, created by the holy spirit.
Isa 9:6-7, many translators use the words mighty warrior in place of mighty God. I do so wish I was intelligent though to read Hebrew and Greek.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
May 5th, 2012, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
He is the son, the ONLY begotten son, created by the holy spirit.
Isa 9:6-7, many translators use the words mighty warrior in place of mighty God. I do so wish I was intelligent though to read Hebrew and Greek.
Keypurr,
My user name is oatmeal. If I had a cyber son, I might name him "oatmeal" , oatmeal, jr.
In that case, I would call him "oatmeal"
Yet, he is not me and I am not him.
Why do trinitarians read so much into that fact that God had a son and name His son after himself?
What does that prove other than that the Father found it fit to name His son by His name?
Maybe if God had named his son, "Ralphy" then their confusion would be alleviated?
The trins read into scripture, like you or another, said in one of your previous posts, they do not look at the big picture. For that matter, they do not seem to be able to see beyond their nose, let alone the big picture.
I am glad for those of us who see the larger context.
God's word, His truth, extends way beyond our noses, and He wants that we see it all, and comprehend it. Ephesians 3:18;1:18-19
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Yes, that is what I think, No, he can appear any way he wishes. It is not me that has put limits on him. Scripture tell you that God created his image and that image created this world.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I have one question for you here about the portion in red. Where do you see God creating His "image?"
We know from John 1:1 the Word was God in the beginning, and became flesh. John 1:14.
In Col. 1:15 the Greek word (prototikto) is firstborn. Had it been first created, it would be protoktizo.
As used in this verse, it is a title of preeminence as stated. Col. 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." This is supported by John 1:1.
The "misguided" are those who deny that God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Then I see you are denying God's ONLY begotten Son:
Acts 10:38 KJV
(38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
No, I am affirming John 1:14.
Jesus was "with God" in the beginning, too. Not separate, but ONE.
Jesus was God in the beginning. John 1:1
He became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14
Those who deny Jesus are those who deny God manifest Himself in the flesh and dwelt among us. 1 Timothy 3:16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He IS the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47
Jesus made it as clear as He could. Behind the Son of man (through Mary), He was the Son of God. Two natures. God in the flesh. He was not just a good man sent by God. He was God Almighty clothing Himself in humanity.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
So it's also possible, God had a Son, in His own likeness, who also had the ''FULLNESS'' of God's spirit UPON His Son:
Isa 42:1-6 KJV
(1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
(2) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
(3) A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
(4) He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
(5) Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
(6) I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
All scriptures need to fit:
We are hear to learn and accept all scriptures, so who is God speaking of in Isa 42:1-6.
glorydaz, please before proceeding, I would like to know how you read and understand passages such as Isa 42:1-6 and Isa 11:1-3 KJV
God bless
Yes, Jesus was the suffering servant. (If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself....and that's exactly what happened.)
Matt. 12:17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Psalm 110:1-2 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
John 3:31-35 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Romans 15:3-4 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Notice Christ was in the form of God, and took upon himself the form of a servant.
Phil. 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Notice how every knee shall bow to Him.
Phil. 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yet here, God is the Saviour...there is none other...and every knee will bow to Him.
Isaiah 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Notice the verse you put here.
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,........
Your own quote corrects you. This spiritual image created all for his God, in other words, Christ was the being who God used to create. This being is the first creation of God. The dictionary will tell you that "firstborn" can mean first in rank or first born. God is spirit, he created another spirit being to assist him. This spirit being was put into Jesus when he was baptized. Now you can see how Jesus could say he is the I AM. He was claiming to be the Christ.
So how does a "spiritual image" create something?
In the first place, "this being" was not created.
He was "in the beginning" ETERNAL, and WAS GOD. John 1:1.
To claim Jesus was merely God's "assistant" is to deny Him. I know you don't mean to belittle our Lord Jesus Christ, but when you make such statements, that's exactly what you're doing. Jesus said He was I AM before Abraham.
"Christ" refers to his roles as priest, prophet, king and Messiah.
The Messiah is the Saviour and Redeemer. Yet, the OT informs us Almighty God is the only Saviour and Redeemer.
Please note and consider the following....
Quote:
"Yea, before the day was I am he.." Is. 43:12
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he." . John 13:19
Is. 43:11-15 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
My user name is oatmeal. If I had a cyber son, I might name him "oatmeal" , oatmeal, jr.
In that case, I would call him "oatmeal"
Yet, he is not me and I am not him.
Why do trinitarians read so much into that fact that God had a son and name His son after himself?
What does that prove other than that the Father found it fit to name His son by His name?
Maybe if God had named his son, "Ralphy" then their confusion would be alleviated?
The trins read into scripture, like you or another, said in one of your previous posts, they do not look at the big picture. For that matter, they do not seem to be able to see beyond their nose, let alone the big picture.
I am glad for those of us who see the larger context.
God's word, His truth, extends way beyond our noses, and He wants that we see it all, and comprehend it. Ephesians 3:18;1:18-19
oatmeal
You're obviously using human thought processes and fencing your understanding in with human biology. God is Spirit. He clothed Himself with a cloud and fire to shield His glory when the children wandered in the wilderness. He clothed Himself in human flesh and dwelt among us...that does not make Him anything like a man and his son.
Spiritual understanding is required....human reasoning will always keep you in the realm of this world and thinking in terms of biological parentage. It won't work.
He is the son, the ONLY begotten son, created by the holy spirit.
Isa 9:6-7, many translators use the words mighty warrior in place of mighty God. I do so wish I was intelligent though to read Hebrew and Greek.
Not "created" by the Holy Spirit....conceived in Mary by the Holy Ghost. God used the regular method by fertilizing an egg....invitro fertilization as we know it today. You haven't created any children, I presume.
Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
My user name is oatmeal. If I had a cyber son, I might name him "oatmeal" , oatmeal, jr.
In that case, I would call him "oatmeal"
Yet, he is not me and I am not him.
Why do trinitarians read so much into that fact that God had a son and name His son after himself?
What does that prove other than that the Father found it fit to name His son by His name?
Maybe if God had named his son, "Ralphy" then their confusion would be alleviated?
The trins read into scripture, like you or another, said in one of your previous posts, they do not look at the big picture. For that matter, they do not seem to be able to see beyond their nose, let alone the big picture.
I am glad for those of us who see the larger context.
God's word, His truth, extends way beyond our noses, and He wants that we see it all, and comprehend it. Ephesians 3:18;1:18-19
oatmeal
I understand friend.
Supposing I went to a morphing shop amd had myself morphed.
I called my morph "keypurr2", would that make the created morph me or would it just be a copy of me?
They will not understand that also.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
How can one even prove he is 'God' beyond it being a belief, opinion and doctrinal assumption? (considering there are just as many verses that translate otherwise).
Jesus does fine as a representative or Agent of God, so long as the he is represented truthfully as embodying and expressing the qualities and attributes of divinity. - all else are theological concepts, philosophical constructs and beliefs about Jesus.
Again, the burden of proof falls on those making the claim of Jesus divinity, which subsists on presupposition and doctrinal posturing. Since such 'proof' of Jesus divinity cannot be had beyond belief.... one wonders what profit can be had pushing such in 'dogmatic' fashion.
There are other ways to interpret Jesus humanity and divinity, depending on what school of thought one resonates with and what theological investments one tends towards.
How can one even prove he is 'God' beyond it being a belief, opinion and doctrinal assumption? (considering there are just as many verses that translate otherwise).
Jesus does fine as a representative or Agent of God, so long as the he is represented truthfully as embodying and expressing the qualities and attributes of divinity. - all else are theological concepts, philosophical constructs and beliefs about Jesus.
Again, the burden of proof falls on those making the claim of Jesus divinity, which subsists on presupposition and doctrinal posturing. Since such 'proof' of Jesus divinity cannot be had beyond belief.... one wonders what profit can be had pushing such in 'dogmatic' fashion.
There are other ways to interpret Jesus humanity and divinity, depending on what school of thought one resonates with and what theological investments one tends towards.
pj
One can only be sure when they have been born again. No human can take away sin and give us a new heart. We abide in Him and His Spirit produces fruit through us. It's like the man who was blind when he was asked to explain how it happened. He said he didn't know, but once he was blind and now he saw.
John 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
I have one question for you here about the portion in red. Where do you see God creating His "image?"
We know from John 1:1 the Word was God in the beginning, and became flesh. John 1:14.
In Col. 1:15 the Greek word (prototikto) is firstborn. Had it been first created, it would be protoktizo.
As used in this verse, it is a title of preeminence as stated. Col. 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." This is supported by John 1:1.
Friend what is an image? An image is a created copy of the original.
God is Spirit, he made an image of the spirit. That spirit is not him, but a copy of him. That is why he is called a FORM of God in Philippians 2:6. He waqs not god but the IMAGE of God.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Here is the word image again, a copy of God, not God. I hope with all my heart you can see what I am trying to show you.
Jesus was a man from God who had the IMAGE of God in him. That is why he said if you have seen me, you have seen the father.
I cannot debate the Hebrew or Greek languages as I do lnot read them. I must relay on the translators to do that for me.
Jonh 1 tells us about this image that became flesh. Jesus is the body that carried that spirit, being the son of God, he was sinless and qualified to be the Lamb of God.
Peace friend
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Not "created" by the Holy Spirit....conceived in Mary by the Holy Ghost. God used the regular method by fertilizing an egg....invitro fertilization as we know it today. You haven't created any children, I presume.
Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
You have a better way with words. But I was sitting in a chair using my Kindle with a 22 pound cat holding me down. sometimes I get frusterated with the word corrector on the Kindle, it is great for reading, but word processing , no.
Well you will have to as my kids, they look like me and they are smart. So do my grandsons. No I did not create them, God did in my wife.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Supposing I went to a morphing shop amd had myself morphed.
I called my morph "keypurr2", would that make the created morph me or would it just be a copy of me?
They will not understand that also.
Now you're saying Jesus is merely a "copy" of God?
Before, it was a "God-like creature."
Then it was God's "assistant."
Even "doubting Thomas" called Him "My Lord and my God."
John 8:24 – “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 – Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 – Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
It was the image or copy of God. It wasn't a visual thing,He was a form of God.
Quote:
In the first place, "this being" was not created.
Every image is created from the original
Quote:
He was "in the beginning" ETERNAL, and WAS GOD. John 1:1.
Yes, he was the FIRST creation
Quote:
To claim Jesus was merely God's "assistant" is to deny Him. I know you don't mean to belittle our Lord Jesus Christ, but when you make such statements, that's exactly what you're doing. Jesus said He was I AM before Abraham.
Does not the scriptures say that creation was done THROUGH him? God used him to do the work.
Quote:
"Christ" refers to his roles as priest, prophet, king and Messiah.
Being from the line of David, he was the annointed King of Israel.
Quote:
The Messiah is the Saviour and Redeemer. Yet, the OT informs us Almighty God is the only Saviour and Redeemer.
God is the saviour, he sent Jesus t odo that, so they are BOTH saviours, yet one in purpose. The General sent the Sargent to do the job.
Quote:
Please note and consider the following....
Is. 43:11-15 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Friend, Jesus is that redeamer, he is the MAN that held the spirit image of God. God cannot die, he sent his son as a man to do that. That man received the image spirit when Jesus was baptized. That spirit left him on the cross. That is why Jesus cried out Why have you forsaken me. After that Jesus gave up his own spirit and died.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
You haven't created any children, I presume. 
beliefs...... -
May 5th, 2012, 08:26 PM
Linear Mode
