Why do Christians believe that the messiah must be God Himself?
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May 4th, 2012, 01:51 AM
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Every time somebody rolls out that verse, I have to say the same thing. Hebrew names are often connected to God. I know people with some of the names in that verse.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that what is supposedly the absolutely most important fact in the Bible is mysteriously hidden in obscure verses that need to be creatively interpreted to work.
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May 4th, 2012, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Elia
Bs'd
Nowhere is it written in the Hebrew Bible, that the messiah is going to be God Himself.
"Messiah" simply means "anointed one", and refers to an anointed king. (or high priest)
So why isn't the Christian messiah a normal anointed Jewish king?
Eliyahu
I don't think started from believing the Messiah must be God and then moved to Jesus being divine. I think it was the other way - the belief that Jesus was God came first and now people are coming up with reasons why it couldn't have been any other way.
Jesus was Adam: Adam is also referred to as son of God (Luke 3:38) and Jesus as firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15). Jesus was not God.
Adam = Noah = Abraham = Joseph = Moses = David = Jesus = Mohammed (and many other persons not all biblical, for example Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar).
Only Jesus knew he was Adam so this is the reason why Jesus is seen as a God and the others reincarnations are not (because people think Jesus lives eternally).
It is just reincarnation and Jesus did not remember anything about being Adam or anybody else.
So, who is God and why is he called Son of God. I think I have the answer:
The woman did not come from the man as has been written in Genesis, but the man Adam was born of the woman Eve. Eve was called Mother of All the Living (Gen. 3:20), while Christians are considered to be children of God and born of God (John 1:12-13), so it is still possible to arrive at the conclusion that God is a woman (and that the Gospels have been changed) and that Eve was God.
Well, where does the story of the rib come from?
In this Sumerian myth the goddess Ninhursag created a beautiful garden full of lush vegetation and fruit trees, called Edinu, in Dilman, the Sumerian Paradise. Ninhursag charged her lover Enki with controlling the wild animals and tending the garden, but Enki became curious about the garden. His assistant Adapa selected seven plants and offered them to Enki, who ate them. This enraged Ninhursag, and she caused Enki to fall ill. Enki felt pain in his rib. The other gods persuaded Ninhursag to relent. Ninhursag then created a new goddess named Ninti, which can be translated as both Lady of Living and Lady of the Rib. Ninhursag is known as mother of all living creatures, and thus holds a similar position as Eve.
The Quran does not confirm the story of Eve being created out of the rib of Adam, so it is likely that the Sumerian creation myth has been used to alter the Biblical story. At the same time it is possible that the Sumerian creation myth has been based on elements of the Biblical creation story, as The Quran names the Garden of Eden (Quran 9:72), and this may explain why the Sumerian Paradise is called Edinu. The pun in the name Ninti at least indicates that the Sumerian creation myth is the source for the story about the rib.
It can explain why the Gospels have been altered, and why the role of Mary Magdalene has been changed. Look at this for example:
The repeated reference in the Gnostic texts of Mary as being loved by Jesus more than the others indicates that the Beloved Disciple in the Gospel of John was originally Mary Magdalene, before the text was redacted. The last chapter of the gospel of John appears to be added later to suggest that the Beloved Disciple was John as the previous chapter already has closing lines (John 20:30-31). There apparently had been rumours that the Beloved Disciple had become immortal (John 21:23), and possibly people have thought that this disciple would wait for the return of Jesus. If the Beloved Disciple was Mary Magdalene, this would have made sense, because She was God.
Every time somebody rolls out that verse, I have to say the same thing. Hebrew names are often connected to God. I know people with some of the names in that verse.
Who else is called "Mighty God" besides, well, God?
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Doesn't it strike you as odd that what is supposedly the absolutely most important fact in the Bible is mysteriously hidden in obscure verses that need to be creatively interpreted to work.
Prophesies do need careful interpretation. The fact that Jesus is God is more clearly revealed in New Testament scripture (which is equally inspired and perfect), specifically in the gospels' accounts of his life and teaching and in early church expositions of doctrine (e.g. Paul's letters).
So, people's answers to your question will be based on these things I've mentioned: their interpretation of OT prophesy, and their acceptance of NT inspiration. In my opinion, OT prophesy does proclaim that the coming Messiah would be God, and NT scripture likewise affirms that truth.
Are you still waiting for a mere human to save you from your sins?
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May 4th, 2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chair
Every time somebody rolls out that verse, I have to say the same thing. Hebrew names are often connected to God. I know people with some of the names in that verse.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that what is supposedly the absolutely most important fact in the Bible is mysteriously hidden in obscure verses that need to be creatively interpreted to work.
Those who do not want to believe will not!
"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive" (Matthew 13:14).
Isaiah 6:9 "He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving."
Nowhere is it written in the Hebrew Bible, that the messiah is going to be God Himself.
"Messiah" simply means "anointed one", and refers to an anointed king. (or high priest)
So why isn't the Christian messiah a normal anointed Jewish king?
Eliyahu
Good question. I agree they do not know him.
How can he be a normal Jewish King when he is the son of God? He just is, but his kingdom is not of this world. it's kind of a spiritual thing.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
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"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
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May 7th, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bradley D
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Bs'd
Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".
Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.
Eliyahu
JC was not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah.
Only Y-H-W-H is God.
Slogan/motto:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
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May 7th, 2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Newman
Who else is called "Mighty God" besides, well, God?
Bs'd
Who would be called "helping God", except for, well, God?
Oh, the man Elazar, in Ex 6:23.
Quote:
In my opinion, OT prophesy does proclaim that the coming Messiah would be God
Give please some examples.
Quote:
Are you still waiting for a mere human to save you from your sins?
No, the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is one, is going to save me from my sins: Isaiah 43:3: "For I am Y-H-W-H thy G.d, the Holy one of Israel, thy saviour."
Isaiah 43:10-11: "Before Me there was no G.d formed, neither shall there be after me, even I, I am Y-H-W-H, and beside Me there is no saviour."
Isaiah 45:21-22: "... I Y-H-W-H, and there is no G.d else beside Me, a just G.d and a saviour, there is no saviour beside Me. Look unto Me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am G.d and there is none else."
Hosea 13:4: "Yet I am Y-H-W-H thy G.d, and thou shall know no G.d but Me, for there is no saviour beside Me."
Psalm 32:5 "Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to Y-H-W-H.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin."
"Psalm 85:2-3 "You, Y-H-W-H, showed favor to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins."
Eliyahu
JC was not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah.
Only Y-H-W-H is God.
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Doesn't it strike you as odd that what is supposedly the absolutely most important fact in the Bible is mysteriously hidden in obscure verses that need to be creatively interpreted to work.
No, it makes sense. Lucifer covets the relations God has with people, so he tried to drive a wedge between us. He still tries. Therefore, the idea of the messiah dying for the sin of the world was hidden in scripture. There isn't any creative intrepretation to understand pslam 22. Nor do I consider Isaiah calling him God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace hidden.
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
That's called celebrating God. The verse is praising God giving to us the child.
How enlightening it is to look at Scripture correctly.
But he is also the Son of God by his own statements. And so there needs not be any ridiculous idea that I am Jewish or Islamic.
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