[Traditio]

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).

I hold the following truths either to be self-evident or close to it:

1. The human intellect is frail and often is led astray. This is especially painfully obvious to me as a philosophy student. Because of my education, I am able to avoid many of the fallacies and errors that befall many...only to fall into yet greater and greater errors myself.

2. The post-lapsarian (post-fall) state of man is one of bondage to sin (Romans 7:23). Even where our intellect does not fail us, our will does. Even though I might know what is right, I often fail to do it.

3. The way to eternal life is "the narrow road." Eternal life with God is a supernatural end, and it's one that's extraordinarily difficult to reach; the only way to get there is through a spectacular showering of God's graces upon us. Without the extraordinary power of God being shown in our favor, we cannot reach it.

4. Satan is a pure intellect, and he hates us. Satan and the fallen angels are constantly "prowling the world seeking the ruin of souls."* Satan's power to know far, far exceeds our own, and he is quite capable of deceiving us. And he wants to drag as many of us down to Hell with him as he can.

So, let's recap: Our intellects are frail. Our wills are weak. The way to life is hard to find and difficult to keep. And there are many, many very intelligent angels who are constantly trying to block that path off from us and lead us on the way to everlasting death.

We are like blind and deaf men wandering about in a massive field in search for a penny. And there are people who can see and hear just fine walking around and trying to make sure that we don't find it.

Unless God has given us someone who can hear and see to take us by the hand and lead us, how can we have any hope?

The Protestant says that he is smart enough to figure everything out himself.

But I admit that I am foolish and weak. I admit that I am a poor sinner and that I am spiritually blind.

And the only hope for us is if God has set an authority in charge of us whom we can obey.



*This is a quote from the prayer to St. Michael.

[HisServant]

Catholicism is the wide gate.. that is all that someone needs to know.

After all.. aren't there 1.2 billion of them?

And no, Protestants do not think they are smart enough to figure it out on their own.

Protestants are smart enough to listen the the Holy Spirit working in their lives, whereas the Catholic church would have you silence him.

Yet, Protestants in their traditions, carry along a ton of baggage from the Catholic pagan church... the reformation wasn't enough to truly free the Holy Spirit.. we need yet another reformation to educate the masses about what life in the Spirit is all about.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

Catholicism is the wide gate.. that is all that someone needs to know.

After all.. aren't there 1.2 billion of them?

I'm not sure. But let's say so: 1.2 billion out of roughly 6 billion people on earth. And most of those 1.2 billion aren't obedient to the Church.


But you've failed to address my reasoning: suppose I grant that Catholicism is the wide gate, and that it is the ploy of Satan to lead us to Hell. Suppose I grant that. What hope do any of us have? Your reading of scripture? My reading of scripture?

I am more likely than not to misunderstand it.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Traditio

I'm not sure. But let's say so: 1.2 billion out of roughly 6 billion people on earth. And most of those 1.2 billion aren't obedient to the Church.


But you've failed to address my reasoning: suppose I grant that Catholicism is the wide gate, and that it is the ploy of Satan to lead us to Hell. Suppose I grant that. What hope do any of us have? Your reading of scripture? My reading of scripture?

I am more likely than not to misunderstand it.

The Holy Spirit in the life of his children is EVERYTHING and what DEFINES a child of God.

Getting to heaven is not a group exercise. Belonging to the largest group and doing everything it says will get you no where.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

The Holy Spirit in the life of his children is EVERYTHING and what DEFINES a child of God.

Getting to heaven is not a group exercise. Belonging to the largest group and doing everything it says will get you no where.

Is it possible that you think that the Holy Spirit is telling you how to live and how to seek after God, but as a matter of fact, you are deceived?

Again, suppose that you were one of those many blind and deaf men seeking after a penny, is it not possible that one of those deceivers might have taken you by the hand and started to whisper into your ear the "way" to reach the penny...only, in fact, to lead you in the opposite direction?

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Is it possible that you think that the Holy Spirit is telling you how to live and how to seek after God, but as a matter of fact, you are deceived?

Again, suppose that you were one of those many blind and deaf men seeking after a penny, is it not possible that one of those deceivers might have taken you by the hand and started to whisper into your ear the "way" to reach the penny...only, in fact, to lead you in the opposite direction?

No.. I am not deceived because his leading is never in conflict with the basic teachings of Jesus.

We are to practice our religion behind the closed doors of our own homes. When we come together, it is for fellowship and edification.

We are to pray as Jesus taught us.

Etc.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Traditio

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).

I hold the following truths either to be self-evident or close to it:

1. The human intellect is frail and often is led astray. This is especially painfully obvious to me as a philosophy student. Because of my education, I am able to avoid many of the fallacies and errors that befall many...only to fall into yet greater and greater errors myself.

Where our intellect is frail, Jesus' is all-encompassing, strong, and permanent.

Replacing our frail intellect with the frail intellect of a hierarchical structure of men hardly seems like the answer.

2. The post-lapsarian (post-fall) state of man is one of bondage to sin (Romans 7:23). Even where our intellect does not fail us, our will does. Even though I might know what is right, I often fail to do it.

Where our will is weak, His is strong.

Leaning on the wills of fellow men is an absurd solution to the problem of the weak-willed human.

3. The way to eternal life is "the narrow road." Eternal life with God is a supernatural end, and it's one that's extraordinarily difficult to reach; the only way to get there is through a spectacular showering of God's graces upon us. Without the extraordinary power of God being shown in our favor, we cannot reach it.

Agreed. We disagree on how God's grace is administered. It is not administered by the functions of the Catholic church. It is administered to individuals directly by God. God uses the church to spread the message--to get people to hear the gospel. Upon hearing the gospel, people may be saved. The church itself plays no role in the actual switching of man's legal standing before God.

4. Satan is a pure intellect, and he hates us. Satan and the fallen angels are constantly "prowling the world seeking the ruin of souls."* Satan's power to know far, far exceeds our own, and he is quite capable of deceiving us. And he wants to drag as many of us down to Hell with him as he can.

Are the men in the upper echelons of power in the Catholic church immune to Satan's influence?

So, let's recap: Our intellects are frail. Our wills are weak. The way to life is hard to find and difficult to keep. And there are many, many very intelligent angels who are constantly trying to block that path off from us and lead us on the way to everlasting death.

We are like blind and deaf men wandering about in a massive field in search for a penny. And there are people who can see and hear just fine walking around and trying to make sure that we don't find it.

Unless God has given us someone who can hear and see to take us by the hand and lead us, how can we have any hope?

I see where you are going with this, but I think that the men in the Catholic church are just as blind and deaf as we are.

The Protestant says that he is smart enough to figure everything out himself.

Wrong. We believe that we are just as fallen, dumb, and weak-willed as the next human.

The error is when people think that there is some special group of bureaucrats that aren't.

But I admit that I am foolish and weak. I admit that I am a poor sinner and that I am spiritually blind.

And your priest isn't?

And the only hope for us is if God has set an authority in charge of us whom we can obey.

Jesus is our authority. We obey Scripture.

The church exists to testify the gospel of the grace of God, with pooled resources, encouragement from fellow Christian brothers and sisters, and as a response to individual and corporate worship.

The church does not exist to hammer out a set of rules for us to live by. This has already been done by Scripture.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

No.. I am not deceived because his leading is never in conflict with the basic teachings of Jesus.

You are begging the question. I'll grant you that the Holy Spirit always leads in the same way that Jesus commands. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God. Therefore, they cannot contradict each other.

But my question is how you can know that you are being led by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you think you are, but you are not?

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Traditio

You are begging the question. I'll grant you that the Holy Spirit always leads in the same way that Jesus commands. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God. Therefore, they cannot contradict each other.

But my question is how you can know that you are being led by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you think you are, but you are not?

When you had his spirit.. you would not need to ask this question, it would be evident in your demeanor and love.

There is God, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit... how they relate is irrelevant.. as God has revealed all we need to know about himself, his son, and his Holy Spirit.

Then again, I would ask the question... 'What does the doctrine of the trinity have to do with doing the work that God has prepared for us in advance?" It's nothing more than straining at gnats... it also shows you have very little faith in the Holy Spirits inspiration of scripture.

God revealed specifically what he wants us to know in scripture... to logically derive doctrine from that disrespects God and is also the same reasoning that led Adam and Eve to eat of the tree that damned us all.

At least think about it.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

When you had his spirit.. you would not need to ask this question, it would be evident in your demeanor and love.

I imagine that if a blind man were to be led astray in the example that I've given, he would give a similar answer: "I just know that we're getting closer. This man who has taken me by the hand and is leading me is assuring me that we're getting closer! It's evident in the purpose and speed with which we're going!"

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Traditio

I imagine that if a blind man were to be led astray in the example that I've given, he would give a similar answer: "I just know that we're getting closer. This man who has taken me by the hand and is leading me is assuring me that we're getting closer! It's evident in the purpose and speed with which we're going!"

No one needs to 'lead' us.

God has chosen whomever he wanted and put their name in the book of life at the very foundation of the world.

Do you believe that God's will can be denied?

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Newman

Where our intellect is frail, Jesus' is all-encompassing, strong, and permanent.

I don't deny this.

Replacing our frail intellect with the frail intellect of a hierarchical structure of men hardly seems like the answer.

I agree with you. But if Jesus miraculously were to ensure that this heirarchy would always give us the right answer...if Jesus miraculously were to ensure that this heirarchy would never go astray...

That would be quite different, wouldn't it?

here our will is weak, His is strong.

Leaning on the wills of fellow men is an absurd solution to the problem of the weak-willed human.

If, on the other hand, Christ miraculously were to ensure that this hierarchy of weak-willed humans would never, through the weakness of their will, lead us astray, but would always take care that His will and His will only were made manifest in their teaching...if He took care that His power and His very life would be present in Her liturgies and sacraments...

That would be different, wouldn't it?

Agreed. We disagree on how God's grace is administered. It is not administered by the functions of the Catholic church. It is administered to individuals directly by God. God uses the church to spread the message--to get people to hear the gospel. Upon hearing the gospel, people may be saved. The church itself plays no role in the actual switching of man's legal standing before God.

Even if you were right, how would you know?

Are the men in the upper echelons of power in the Catholic church immune to Satan's influence?

Insofar as they sin? No. Insofar as they may harbor personal views which are at odds with Church teaching? No. But the Church Itself is immune from Satan's influence to this extent: She cannot teach us error.

I see where you are going with this, but I think that the men in the Catholic church are just as blind and deaf as we are.

Then none of us have any hope. We are all deaf and blind. None of us have any chance of getting to Heaven. We're all damned.

Jesus is our authority. We obey Scripture.

How do you know that you understand Scripture properly? Perhaps you've misunderstood it.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

No one needs to 'lead' us.

God has chosen whomever he wanted and put their name in the book of life at the very foundation of the world.

How do you know that you're right?

Do you believe that God's will can be denied?

No. But I do believe that God's will may not always be obvious to us according to the power of our own intellect.

[HisServant]

Originally Posted by Traditio

How do you know that you're right?

The Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Traditio

No. But I do believe that God's will may not always be obvious to us according to the power of our own intellect.

I don't believe our intellect has anything to do with it. Jesus loved the children who obviously had small intellects and pointed to their faith as being superior.

So you are left with the undeniable fact that the pursuit of knowledge beyond what was plainly revealed is folly... i.e. all your dogmas are folly.


Then you would have to ask yourself why your church went through the painstaking process of developing dogma over and above the disciples and Jesus' teachings.. then you will be enlightened.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by HisServant

The Holy Spirit.

How do you know that the Holy Spirit is giving you the right answer, and that you are not deceived into thinking this?