[chrysostom]

Originally Posted by meshak

If you are striving to be obedient to Jesus, you have nothing to worry about.

this is true

[Robert Pate]

Originally Posted by chrysostom

this is true

He doesn't have the truth either.

You can't obey nor can you keep the law, Romans 3:19.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

He doesn't have the truth either.

You can't obey nor can you keep the law, Romans 3:19.

Deuteronomy 30:14 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

[Robert Pate]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

Deuteronomy 30:14 is about getting right with God.

Paul picks up on this in Romans 10:8, 9, 10, 11.

You cannot get right with God by trying to keep the commandments, Galatians 3:10, 11.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

After you have done all of the things that need to be done in the Catholic religion what makes you think that you have done enough?

Think for a moment about what you are asking and what your question means. This, I think, is where the vast difference between Protestantism and Catholicism comes out, and where the Protestants are shown to have a really poor understanding of the relation between nature and grace.

For Protestants, grace covers over or replaces nature. The sacrifice at Calvary "covers over" our human nature and replaces it in the sight of God. So it's no longer you that God judges, but Jesus. And of course, Jesus is Supremely Good, so He'll never get judged guilty. This is why you only need that one act of faith, why you only need to "get saved" a single time.

This is not the Catholic view. Grace perfects nature.* The Sacrifice at Calvary was a work of restoration/redemption. In particular, Christ died in order to redeem, restore and raise up fallen human nature.

As such, the Sacrifice at Calvary does not "cover us over." Rather, it does something much more wonderful: it renews us. The New Law is nothing but the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and He perfects us in the following way and order:

1. Through the forgiveness of sins.
2. Through the remediation of human nature as subject to the fomes of sin (disordered lusts, for example).
3. And by raising us up to the sight of God Himself in the beatific vision.

So think about your question: when will I have gone to Church enough? When will I have received the Sacraments enough?

Then ask yourself the following questions:

1. Have you, at any time, preferred a created good to God? Have you committed a mortal sin by turning to the creature and away from God? Then you need to be forgiven either through baptism (which can only be received once) or through the sacrament of penance.

A corpse cannot be perfected.

2. Even if you have no serious sins on your soul, nonetheless, do you find yourself affected by disordered passions and lusts? Do you feel tempted to eat more than you ought? To pray less than you ought? Is there anyone you feel tempted to hate? To sum up, do you ever find it difficult to live as Christ would have you live?

Then you are not perfect. You are still under the law of the fomes of sin. You still need to be perfected.

3. And even if somehow through the magnificent grace of God you were so elevated in this life so as to walk perfectly in the sight of God (as, for example, Our Blessed Mother), nonetheless, are you presently beholding God face to face in Heaven?

Then you still must be raised up and elevated through the superabundant graces of the Holy Spirit.

So when is "enough" really enough? In this life, "enough" is never enough. We are works in progress.



*A common saying among the Scholastics.

How do you know for sure that you have been infused with the virtues of Christ? How much infusing do you need to be acceptable?

Well, faith and hope is easy enough. You merely need ask yourself: "Do I believe in the Catholic Faith and do I have reasonable hope that God will make me happy if I live as He would have me live?"

Charity's harder. Charity is the in-dwelling of the Holy Ghost and friendship with God. Can you really know whether or not you are in a state of grace and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you? No. But you can have reasonable hope if the following are true:

1. You have been baptised and
2a. You have not committed any mortal sins since baptism or
2b. You have confessed your sins in the Sacrament of Penance and
2c. You have not committed any more mortal sins since 2b.

How much is enough? Again, refer to my answer above.

How do you know that your soul has been restored by divine grace?

The most surefire way to know that your soul has been restored by divine grace is if you see God face to face in Heaven.

The Catholic religion is all about you and your performance. It is the religion of... You must, You must, You must, and if you don't your anathema. Paul called this as being under the curse of the law, Galatians 3:10.

The Catholic faith is all about God's work of redemption/restoration in us. That's what Christ called "abiding in him and him in us," namely, by keeping his commandments (John 15:7-12).

God demands absolute perfection.

Can God perfect us?

The Protestant says no.
The Catholic says yes.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

Dueteronomy 30:14 is about getting right with God.

Paul picks up on this in Romans 10:8, 9, 10, 11.

You cannot get right with God by trying to keep the commandments, Galatians 3:10, 11.

You can lose favor with God by breaking the commandments and teaching others to do so as well.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I can know that I'm saved (or not) right now. I could be wrong about that if I'm presumptuous, but it's still possible to know. I can't on account of that merely conclude that I am one of elect or that God is from now on indifferent to anything I do, however. I can't say for sure that I'll be saved five years from now or even next year or even tomorrow. It would be unwise (to make a huge understatement) to make that assumption and become indifferent.

I can't tell if you are saying that after Christ has saved you you can become unsaved.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I can't tell if you are saying that after Christ has saved you you can become unsaved.

Who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

Not who is saved once after which nothing else matters.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

Not who is saved once after which nothing else matters.

I believe the passage you are talking about is more to deal with end times than salvation. Yes you will be saved if you persevere. But this does not mean that you cannot be saved now. If it depended on works, then who could be saved?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

If it depended on works, then who could be saved?

Hence everything I've said about how you've never done "enough."

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Hence everything I've said about how you've never done "enough."

Hence what I said about how you will never know if you have done enough of the sacraments. Because that is your standard for salvation.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Hence what I said about how you will never know if you have done enough of the sacraments. Because that is your standard for salvation.

I've said many times what I believe is necessary for salvation. But people keep refusing to take what I say at face value and keep having to re-imagine it so that it better suits their idea of what they think I must believe. Or something.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I've said many times what I believe is necessary for salvation. But people keep refusing to take what I say at face value and keep having to re-imagine it so that it better suits their idea of what they think I must believe. Or something.

I'm sorry, but you are relating sacraments of the Catholic Church to salvation.

[Robert Pate]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Think for a moment about what you are asking and what your question means. This, I think, is where the vast difference between Protestantism and Catholicism comes out, and where the Protestants are shown to have a really poor understanding of the relation between nature and grace.

For Protestants, grace covers over or replaces nature. The sacrifice at Calvary "covers over" our human nature and replaces it in the sight of God. So it's no longer you that God judges, but Jesus. And of course, Jesus is Supremely Good, so He'll never get judged guilty. This is why you only need that one act of faith, why you only need to "get saved" a single time.

This is not the Catholic view. Grace perfects nature.* The Sacrifice at Calvary was a work of restoration/redemption. In particular, Christ died in order to redeem, restore and raise up fallen human nature.

As such, the Sacrifice at Calvary does not "cover us over." Rather, it does something much more wonderful: it renews us. The New Law is nothing but the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and He perfects us in the following way and order:

1. Through the forgiveness of sins.
2. Through the remediation of human nature as subject to the fomes of sin (disordered lusts, for example).
3. And by raising us up to the sight of God Himself in the beatific vision.

So think about your question: when will I have gone to Church enough? When will I have received the Sacraments enough?

Then ask yourself the following questions:

1. Have you, at any time, preferred a created good to God? Have you committed a mortal sin by turning to the creature and away from God? Then you need to be forgiven either through baptism (which can only be received once) or through the sacrament of penance.

A corpse cannot be perfected.

2. Even if you have no serious sins on your soul, nonetheless, do you find yourself affected by disordered passions and lusts? Do you feel tempted to eat more than you ought? To pray less than you ought? Is there anyone you feel tempted to hate? To sum up, do you ever find it difficult to live as Christ would have you live?

Then you are not perfect. You are still under the law of the fomes of sin. You still need to be perfected.

3. And even if somehow through the magnificent grace of God you were so elevated in this life so as to walk perfectly in the sight of God (as, for example, Our Blessed Mother), nonetheless, are you presently beholding God face to face in Heaven?

Then you still must be raised up and elevated through the superabundant graces of the Holy Spirit.

So when is "enough" really enough? In this life, "enough" is never enough. We are works in progress.



*A common saying among the Scholastics.



Well, faith and hope is easy enough. You merely need ask yourself: "Do I believe in the Catholic Faith and do I have reasonable hope that God will make me happy if I live as He would have me live?"

Charity's harder. Charity is the in-dwelling of the Holy Ghost and friendship with God. Can you really know whether or not you are in a state of grace and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you? No. But you can have reasonable hope if the following are true:

1. You have been baptised and
2a. You have not committed any mortal sins since baptism or
2b. You have confessed your sins in the Sacrament of Penance and
2c. You have not committed any more mortal sins since 2b.

How much is enough? Again, refer to my answer above.



The most surefire way to know that your soul has been restored by divine grace is if you see God face to face in Heaven.



The Catholic faith is all about God's work of redemption/restoration in us. That's what Christ called "abiding in him and him in us," namely, by keeping his commandments (John 15:7-12).



Can God perfect us?

The Protestant says no.
The Catholic says yes.

Your post contradicts the Bible and the teachings of the apostle Paul.

God does not re-habilitate the fallen nature of man. He puts it to death.

Your doctrine is anti-Bible, anti-Christ, anti-Gospel and anti-God.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (Christ) that the body of sin might be destroyed, that hence forth we should not serve sin," Romans 6:6.

Those who have renounced their righteousness and are trusting in the righteousness of Christ for their salvation are justified by Christ, Romans 3:26. Not by being infused with the virtues of Christ.

They are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven.

"For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God, Colossians 3:3.

THIS MEANS THAT YOUR RELIGION IS WORTHLESS.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

Your post contradicts the Bible and the teachings of the apostle Paul.

God does not re-habilitate the fallen nature of man. He puts it to death.

This simply betrays an ignorance in what is meant by "nature." When I say "nature" I mean something like "man" or "humanity." What you and I have in common is that we are both men. God apparently can't intend to abolish nature, since God is the very author of nature. Without esse (the act of being) freely being granted by God to this or that nature, the nature is nothing. Unless God makes a horse to be, the horse is nothing.

Nature is, in a sense, a cause or principle of substance in the secondary order(s) of causality suspended upon God as the First Cause.

If God abolishes nature, then He abolishes the substance with it. If he abolishes my humanity, then He abolishes me with it. I am a man. It is the same as if He were to abolish my esse (my act of being). Without esse (the act of being), I am nothing.

In any case, as a proof from revealed faith: God clearly doesn't intend to abolish nature. Evidence for this is the resurrection of Christ and His glorified human nature post-resurrection.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (Christ) that the body of sin might be destroyed, that hence forth we should not serve sin," Romans 6:6.

This specifically refers to the law of the fomes of sin. The old man is human nature as fallen/subject to the law of the fomes of sin. This indeed will be destroyed, since, in Heaven (if we are lucky enough to get there), we won't be subject to that law of death which is "fighting against the law of my mind" (Romans 7:23).

This doesn't refer to human nature as such. Again, proof of this is the resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.