[ICameBack]

Trad, this is really stretching and is among the main reasons people will never cross the Tiber. Even a cursory glance at May processions and the devotions show Rome has elevated her almost above Christ. Granted, I feel that we Protestants have largely denigrated an amazing woman who was "blessed among women" not above. She was the chosen handmaiden whose faith pales mine.

Can you show in scripture a single example of a prayer directed to anyone other than God?

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Exactly! And She's still His Mother! He rose from the dead. He has a glorified body. He still has a human nature. Therefore, He still must be obedient to His Mother. If Our Lady says "save that soul" and He were to say "no," He would be dishonoring His Mother!

The major error, here, is that in the New Covenant, we are not bound as adults to obey our mothers.

That's why we have to pray to Our Lady!

Because apart from the intercession of Our Lady, we must face the just indignation of a Supremely Just Judge.

So, the Catholic admits that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is meaningless, that God does not really love the world, but rather only holds wrath against it, and that Mary is the only mediator between God and men, and does so via manipulating God.

Anyone read their bible lately?

If you don't seek refuge in the intercession of the Mother of God, I doubt very much that you can be saved.

Really? Because Jesus said that all that hear and learn from the Father come to Him, and He will raise them up on the last day. (john 6:44-45). I guess you think Jesus lied, then?

God knew from all eternity that She would "manipulate" Him. He could have chosen not to create Her, etc.

There you go. The Catholic believes that it was God's eternal plan to be manipulated by a fallen woman.

I just want to be saved.

Well, are you following the means set forth by God's word, or by Catholic "doctrine"?

The bible says that faith in Christ leads to salvation (John 6, Romans 3, Eph 2, etc, etc, etc.) You seem to be saying that faith in MARY leads to salvation.

Which is it?

In any case, what if I were to say: "I, for one, want to be saved, O' God, simply because you love me. Not because you were born of a woman"?

Because God loves us, He was born of a woman, and He has given us His Mother to intercede for us. If we don't find recourse to Her intercession, we are rejecting the very gifts that God gave us.

I'm still looking in my bible to find the place where Mary is the intercessor and not Jesus. I would hate for your faith to be placed in Mary for your salvation, only to find, as I pointed out above, that obedience to one's mother isn't required in the New Testament.

And Our Lady really is the best of gifts.

Better than God? (better check up on Anselm, here. If this is true, then your god isn't a god at all.)

Against this is Romans 2:14. The requirement to honor your mother and father is part of the natural law. See Ephesians 6:2.

I think you missed Eph 6:1: "[b]6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

I am no longer a child. Neither is Christ. And neither of us are under the Old Covenant.

Looks like you're standing on bad doctrine.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by ICameBack

Trad, this is really stretching and is among the main reasons people will never cross the Tiber. Even a cursory glance at May processions and the devotions show Rome has elevated her almost above Christ.

Marian devotions are Christocentric. The reason that Her intercessions are so powerful is because She is the Mother of God. She bore Christ into the world. God chose Her to be His Mother. That's why we can have such great hope in Her intercession.

Can you show in scripture a single example of a prayer directed to anyone other than God?

"And when Abigail saw David she made haste and lighted off the ***, and fell before David, on her face, and adored upon the ground" (1 Samuel 25:23)

"And on the third day, there appeared a man who came out of Saul's camp, with his garments rent, and dust strewed on his head: and when he came to David, he fell upon his face, and adored" (2 Samuel 1:2).

[ICameBack]

Originally Posted by Traditio

"And when Abigail saw David she made haste and lighted off the ***, and fell before David, on her face, and adored upon the ground" (1 Samuel 25:23)

"And on the third day, there appeared a man who came out of Saul's camp, with his garments rent, and dust strewed on his head: and when he came to David, he fell upon his face, and adored" (2 Samuel 1:2).

And in both cases they were paying earthly homage to the king which was common. This was not prayer to a person in heaven.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

The major error, here, is that in the New Covenant, we are not bound as adults to obey our mothers.

Was Christ an adult when He changed water into wine?

In any case, the necessity to honor your parents extends throughout your life, and especially into the old age of your parents:

"Rise up before the hoary head, and honour the person of the aged man: and fear the Lord thy God. I am the Lord" (Leviticus 19:32).

You may find fault with me because I've quoted the Old Testament, but it again should be noted that all of the moral precepts of the Old Law belong to the Natural Law; they cannot be abrogated.

"But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? For God said: [4] Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death. [5] But you say: Whosoever shall say to father or mother, The gift whatsoever proceedeth from me, shall profit thee. [6] And he shall not honour his father or his mother: and you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition" (Matthew 15:3-6).

So, the Catholic admits that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is meaningless, that God does not really love the world, but rather only holds wrath against it, and that Mary is the only mediator between God and men, and does so via manipulating God.

On the contrary: Our Lady intercedes for us by offering up to God the passion and death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Really? Because Jesus said that all that hear and learn from the Father come to Him, and He will raise them up on the last day. (john 6:44-45). I guess you think Jesus lied, then?

I don't think that Jesus lied. But I don't think that you can come to Jesus except through His Mother. If you have Jesus as your Savior, necessarily, you must venerate the Mother of God.

There you go. The Catholic believes that it was God's eternal plan to be manipulated by a fallen woman.

It was God's eternal plan for us to seek intercession through Mary Immaculate, Conceived Without Sin.

Immaculate Mary

Well, are you following the means set forth by God's word, or by Catholic "doctrine"?

The bible says that faith in Christ leads to salvation (John 6, Romans 3, Eph 2, etc, etc, etc.) You seem to be saying that faith in MARY leads to salvation.

Which is it?

Mary alone can lead us to Christ.

Better than God? (better check up on Anselm, here. If this is true, then your god isn't a god at all.)

God is the best giver of gifts, and He gave us the best of gifts.

I think you missed Eph 6:1: "[b]6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."

Have you stopped being your parents' child? In any case, see above. Moral precepts of the Old Law belong to the Natural Law.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Was Christ an adult when He changed water into wine?

He was also under the Old Covenant.

In any case, the necessity to honor your parents extends throughout your life, and especially into the old age of your parents:

"Rise up before the hoary head, and honour the person of the aged man: and fear the Lord thy God. I am the Lord" (Leviticus 19:32).

You may find fault with me because I've quoted the Old Testament, but it again should be noted that all of the moral precepts of the Old Law belong to the Natural Law; they cannot be abrogated.

Obeying one's parents as an adult is NOT natural law. See Genesis 2: "For this reason, a man shall LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER..." To say that this is natural law is a violation of Scripture.

"But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? For God said: [4] Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death. [5] But you say: Whosoever shall say to father or mother, The gift whatsoever proceedeth from me, shall profit thee. [6] And he shall not honour his father or his mother: and you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition" (Matthew 15:3-6).

Spoken to a man still under the Old Covenant.

On the contrary: Our Lady intercedes for us by offering up to God the passion and death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

And how exactly does she offer up someone else's passion

Make zero sense.

I don't think that Jesus lied. But I don't think that you can come to Jesus except through His Mother. If you have Jesus as your Savior, necessarily, you must venerate the Mother of God.

Then you're in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ, as shown. If this is the RCC position, then it is in error.

It was God's eternal plan for us to seek intercession through Mary Immaculate, Conceived Without Sin.

Then why did she need a savior?

Mary alone can lead us to Christ.

That's odd. Paul said that HE could lead us to Christ.

God is the best giver of gifts, and He gave us the best of gifts.

So, you're recanting your earlier statement about Mary. Unless you think Mary is God...

Have you stopped being your parents' child? In any case, see above. Moral precepts of the Old Law belong to the Natural Law.

See above. Adult children obeying parents is NOT natural law.

And I am no longer a child, thus, I am not my parent's child, but rather my parent's adult offspring.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by ICameBack

And in both cases they were paying earthly homage to the king which was common. This was not prayer to a person in heaven.

This is a bizarre request. If you're looking in the Old Testament (and I haven't read all of it yet), I doubt very much that you'll find prayers to anyone in Heaven but God. But this is unsurprising: Christ hadn't come into the world to die for sinners yet.

And if you're looking for Marian devotion in the New Testament, namely, in the sense of praying to Mary in Heaven for Her intercession, then you won't find it, but this is unsurprising:

The New Testament is divided into:

1. The 4 Gospels.
2. the acts of the apostles
3. The Epistles
4. Revelation

Mary is still alive and on earth throughout the gospels and acts, as far as I remember.

The epistles were written to specific groups of people for specific purposes.

And Revelation, again, was written for a specific purpose. But in Revelation, we do find something amazing:

"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. [Apocalypse (Revelation) 8:3] [Latin] [4] And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Revelation 8:3-4).

Nonetheless, we do find various Marian texts in the Gospels.

[bybee]

Originally Posted by ICameBack

Trad, this is really stretching and is among the main reasons people will never cross the Tiber. Even a cursory glance at May processions and the devotions show Rome has elevated her almost above Christ. Granted, I feel that we Protestants have largely denigrated an amazing woman who was "blessed among women" not above. She was the chosen handmaiden whose faith pales mine.

Can you show in scripture a single example of a prayer directed to anyone other than God?

And I see danger in elevating Paul above and/or beyond Christ.
No one stands above or beyond Christ.

[OMEGA]

My butcher's name is Murray.

He is a great butcher but most of his meat lacks flavour.

Should I pray to Murray or his meat for better flavour ?

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Obeying one's parents as an adult is NOT natural law. See Genesis 2: "For this reason, a man shall LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER..." To say that this is natural law is a violation of Scripture.

This isn't a proof text against my position. In order for this to be a proof text against my position, you would have to assert that Genesis 2 would have ceased to be in effect during the time of the Old Law, but this is clearly false. It's not as though men ceased to leave their father and mother during the time of the Old Law in order to cleave to their wives; note that Christ repeats this very verse in his condemnation of divorce (Matthew 19:5).

In any case, in order for the commandment to honor thy father and mother not to be part of the natural law, you'd have to assert that it's part of the ceremonial or jurdicial precepts of the Old Law. But this is plainly false. All of the precepts of the decalogue are moral precepts. See ST I-II, q. 100, a. 3.

Spoken to a man still under the Old Covenant.

See above. Are you asserting that the commandment in question was part of the ceremonial or juridical precepts of the Old Law?

And how exactly does she offer up someone else's passion

Make zero sense.

If we can't offer up someone else's passion for our salvation, then there goes Christianity, doesn't it?

Then you're in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ, as shown. If this is the RCC position, then it is in error.

No verse directly contradicts it.

Then why did she need a savior?

The merits of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ were applied to Her at the very moment of Her conception. Christ did not permit His Mother to be tainted by the stain of sin. If He did so, He would have violated the commandment to honor His Mother.

That's odd. Paul said that HE could lead us to Christ.

This doesn't contradict what I've said.

See above. Adult children obeying parents is NOT natural law.

Verse where it says that this falls under the juridicial or ceremonial precepts? In order for what you are saying to work, you'd have to tell me that this practice was only found among the Jewish people living under the Old Law. I don't think that this is the case, though.

And I am no longer a child, thus, I am not my parent's child, but rather my parent's adult offspring.

Semantics.

[OMEGA]

The Oedipal complex describes a boy's feelings of desire for
his mother and jealously and anger towards his father. Essentially, a boy feels
like he is in competition with his father for possession of his mother. He views
his father as a rival for her attentions and affections.

The boy wishes to possess his mother and replace his father,
who he views as a rival for his mother's affections. The Oedipal complex occurs
in the phallic stage of psychosexual development between the ages of three and
five. The phallic stage serves as an important point in the formation of sexual
identity. The analogous stage for girls is known as the Electra complex in which
girls feel desire for their fathers and jealousy of their mothers.
The term was named after the character in Sophocles' Oedipus Rex who
accidentally kills his father and marries his mother.
Resolving the Oedipus Complex
In order to develop into a successful adult with a health identity, the child
must identify with the same-sex parent in order to resolve the conflict. Freud
suggested that while the primal id wants to eliminate the father, the more
realistic ego knows that the father is much stronger.
According to Freud, the boy then experiences what he called castration anxiety -
a fear of both literal and figurative emasculation. Freud believed that as the
child becomes aware of the physical differences between males and females, he
assumes that the female's penis has been removed and that his father will also
castrate him as a punishment for desiring his mother.
In order to resolve the conflict, the boy then identifies with his father.

[ICameBack]

Originally Posted by bybee

And I see danger in elevating Paul above and/or beyond Christ.
No one stands above or beyond Christ.

Agreed. But in grade school, I was not made to put a statue of Paul on a pedestal, process around the neighborhood singing hymns to him and call him a mediator.

[RevTestament]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Pagan theologies cannot accept one true God, they seek out other gods to add to their list.

So they make humans into gods, as in making the son of God into God, which is idolatry.

Romans 1:23

Then they make the human son of God into a god, oh, you would never call Mary another god in your list of gods, but in doctrine and in practice, that is exactly what you are doing.

So did God have a grandmother?

And a grandfather?

Is there an uncle of God?

and an aunt of God?

How many?

How about brothers to God?

Hebrews 2:11

oatmeal

Since for pagans they do not pray to the one true God,

You make a good point about Mary. If they honor Mary this way, why not Joseph, Jesse, etc - the list of Jesus' ancestors to honor is quite large - I had to chuckle to myself.

However, making the son of God into God is not idolatry since he is our Father in the word and as we honor him we make him our God who has shown us the way. He who honors him, honors our Father.

[CabinetMaker]

Originally Posted by Traditio

She didn't just ask. When She told Him that there was no wine, He said that it wasn't time for miracles yet. But She told the servants to do whatever He commanded. And because of that, He obeyed Her wish.



To intercede is to "go between" two people. She did indeed intercede for the partygoers. Were She not there, He presumably would have said no. But on their behalf, She compelled Our Lord to turn water into wine.



More learned people than I will have to answer that question.

But I know this: He said no. She commanded Him to do it anyways. And He did it.

And She certainly knows who He is now. And She certainly knows who She is now. She knows that She is the mother of God, and that He'll do whatever She asks.

He granted His mothers wish but Mary did not and cannot command the Son of God.

Originally Posted by Traditio

1. Is Mary the Mother of God? No.
2. Does one of the 10 commandments stipulate that one must honor his mother? Yes
3. Does it follow from 1 and 2 that Christ must do whatever Our Blessed Mother asks of him? No.
4. Is Our Blessed Mother able to ask Christ for our salvation? Maybe.

In any case, what if, perchance, one of the partygoers were to say likewise: "Mary has nothing to do with getting more wine. I'll just go directly to Jesus!"

What would have happened then?

Jesus was just a guest at the wedding so it is highly doubtful that any party goers would have asked Him for more wine.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by CabinetMaker

He granted His mothers wish but Mary did not and cannot command the Son of God.

Do you deny that a son must obey his mother?

I noticed that you denied that Mary is the Mother of God. Do you deny that Christ is God, and that Mary is the mother of Christ?