[Rusha]

Originally Posted by sky.

Well since this thread bounced off of the one that was talking about God ordaining the killing of infants in the Bible. I was wondering about your ability to spiritually discern the difference between God ordaining it and Andrea Yates or Susan Smith ordaining it?

As you well know, I am not a believer and therefore, it wouldn't make any sense to put your deity into the equation. I was speaking literally, not spiritually.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Rusha

As you well know, I am not a believer and therefore, it wouldn't make any sense to put your deity into the equation. I was speaking literally, not spiritually.

Well my "deity" God, is who is at question in this debate, so thanks for being honest about not knowing.

[Arthur Brain]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

No no, I tried to carfully say that both sinful elect and non-elect are born on earth and both can die in womb...sinful elect to redemption and non-elect as a lesson to someone about sin and suffering and then back to sheol.

Who'd know the difference? Someone 'elect' would know that a dead infant was part of the non elect somehow? Otherwise most folk find the death of such a child utterly tragic and horrific.

Exactly happen??? Cute...nothing in Christian theology is exact but I need to be? Especially about a time?

Then 'semi' exactly happen then. On what basis do you derive such a view?

They happened before the creation of the physical universe in heaven, part of the spirit world called Sheol, I think.

Addressed below.

Ah, not everyone cares so I don't always give the whole story in the first blush...

Pre-Conception Existence theology suggests that we had our true free will choices in sheol before being placed in human bodies. These choices accounted for some of the elect falling into sin because they balked at GOD damning the non-elect.

'Pre Conception Existence Theology'? Where does that come from? Does that mean that everyone had a free will choice to be with God prior to 'earth' or only the "elect"? Frankly, good for those who balked because they showed some empathy for their fellow man....

When the time of the true free will choice came:
Some chose to bow to GOD in faith. They were given HIS free gift of being HIS elect Church, and the gospel promise of salvation.

Some rejected HIS invitation and refused to bow. They are called Satan and the fallen angels or His eternal enemies, the non-elect.

Well that's pretty vague. What led up to this 'time'? How could it have been 'free will' if it was only the 'elect' that were capable of making such a choice? You are a Calvinist?

When HIS church was called out from among HIS eternal enemies;
some obeyed with a perfect faith. They are called both holy angels and His Holy Church.

Some of HIS elect refused this call to holiness and became sinners under the law. They became His fallen (though still elect) church, outside of HIS will but not outside HIS love or HIS grace.

So you're part of the 'fallen elect' then? Still, as long as you're part of it and not like the 'vile scum' who are condemned....or human beings in other words....

The purpose of life is to bring the fallen elect church back to full membership in HIS church by the means of the redemptive death of Christ, and the sanctifying purpose of our suffering, in accordance to HIS promise of election.

So how many who died in Auschwitz were part of the 'elect'? The World Trade Center? All those raped, molested and murdered? Nice plan....

My quote was:

and there is nothing about "creating life that just has no purpose but to be damned once they've died on earth" which is your interpretation.

Life was created to achieve HIS purposes by true free will choices but that means life is open the opposite choice, to create evil, ie to reject HIS purpose for our creation. These who rejected their purpose became the non-elect, outside of HIS purpose and will forever (details available) which being born on earth or not will not change.

According to you such choices were seemingly made before any life was even born on earth.

But they are born on earth to serve as good (bad?) examples of the ravages of sin...remembering that the sinful elect opposed their damnation because they (supposedly) needed more time or could be loved out of their rebellion.

Wow, who would have thought compassion or love for others well being could be sinful....

Therefore, because they sided with the damned against Jehovah, their sanctification must be to holiness to the point they relinquish their false ideal/ideals about the non-elect and accept their damnation as just and necessary.

Yep. Empathy for those who are fallible and flawed is just not acceptable.

Do you know if your sister is elect or not? Saved or not? We all hope and pray but we have no proof until we are united in the spirit again.

I'm not a Calvinist dude so asking that question is a waste of time. I think your doctrine is hideous at best and would likely result in a ban if I were to describe it at its worst. Frankly I reckon there'd be several reformed theologians who would balk at your assertions here as well.

Some elect fell into sin by the slimmest of margins...ie they rebelled over a tiny issue which was resolved for them to seek redemption merely by being in a foetus and suffering death...that is all it took for GOD to bring them back to their true free will decison to accept HIS plan for them.

Well, my sister was devastated at the time and mourns the loss years later. She doesn't see the death as a "tiny issue".

Some of the non-elect are given foetus bodies just to die, not to cement their damnation, but to be an object lesson for someone else, a mother or father or stranger who hears about it.

If we don't automatically turn to Christ in holiness when we learn He loves us, then the only other way to bring us to Him is suffering.

Peace, Ted

Unreal.....

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s

It would be interesting to see how many people on TOL subscribe to an "age of accountability" and how many does not. Anyone who can post polls interested?

I think you should be able to post polls at your level.

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

You wouldn't shoot the man with a finger on the "blow up the entire earth button" because he hasn't yet pushed it?

You definitely kill him to stop him if necessary.

[Totton Linnet]

All of this overlooks one very important point of course and that is God has decreed death for every man Jack and Jill of us.

Scientists may speculate and philosophers may muse but God said the wages of sin is death and we will die.

But the new inner life He gives is far more abundant than the natural life which is waning as we speak.

[bybee]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

No, only this much: "So, you think that every aborted baby/infant/child who dies has made a conscious choice prior to earth in a "life" beforehand" because some chose to accept GOD's will for them and some chose to rebel.

Those who "chose to accept GOD's will for them" were given the promised free gift of election and those who rejected HIS plan were set apart for damnation.

Then some of HIS elect stumbled over the idea of damnation, became sinners too and needed to be redeemed and sanctified, ie made holy enough to accept damnation.

So spirits born on earth as humans are either rebellious satanists or sinful elect. Sinful elect are born here to learn holiness and sometimes it is enough to be born human and die in the womb.

And sometimes the dead baby is the worst demonic criminal in sheol and he dies in the womb as a grace to us all to not have to face his evil, but his death is a lesson to someone to bring them to repentance and grace.

In any case, their death is righteous and in accord with GOD's plan for our redemption and sancification.

Peace, Ted

The death of a baby is extremely traumatic and devastating to it's mother. The father, grandparents and extended family have, generally, been awaiting the birth with joy and anticipation.
It is through his love for his woman carrying his child that a man comes close to the mystery of life. But a woman forms the child within her body. At the first flutterings of the growing child within, the mother and child become intensely bonded. Once this bond is in place it is not broken. I was adopted. And yet, my bond to my mother was in place until her death.
Isaac was promised to both Sarah and Abraham. Samuel was a child promised to his mother.


There are exceptions I know.

[Delmar]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

If we, as 'normal' human beings, know the difference between what is 'good' and what is 'evil' (see Genesis 2 & 3) as most christians profess . . .

When is the killing of an infant/baby/child NOT an evil act?

If killing an infant/baby/child is always an evil act what does that say about the person who would do it and/or the diety who would order it be done?

Why would such a deity pass on taking the responsibility of committing the killing of an infant/baby/child him/her/itself by assigning the doing of the deed to someone else?

Let the special pleading begin . . .

I didn't notice, until now, that you started a new thread on this subject. I am wondering, how many threads that accuse the God of the Bible of being an evil tyrant, do you think the moderators of a Christian forum need to tolerate?

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Rusha

As you well know, I am not a believer and therefore, it wouldn't make any sense to put your deity into the equation. I was speaking literally, not spiritually.

All who are genuinely committed to the advancement of women can and must offer a woman or a girl who is pregnant, frightened,
and alone a better alternative than the destruction of her own unborn child ~ Mary Ann Glendon

So,... the way of Eros is to promote sexual promiscuity among straights so as to liberalize the sexual mores and finally allow gays out into the general society with impunity.

This requires a god, Eros, and his consort goddess Istar to command abortion.

This alternative to illegitimacy is not acceptable to the Queen of Heaven, Isis, "Virgin of the World," so she and her Feminists cohorts deem Welfare as the alternative.

The Old testament/and Koran deem Allah's 8-10 annual honor killings as an alternative to sexual promiscuity and pregnancies..

Then there is Christ of the Trinity, who preachs Truth as the way and life best to lead.
Christ says do not srone the baby or harlot, but be wise peoples who sin no more.
Be sexually prundent as in 1945, before the feminist sexual revolution.










"Astarte ... a Semitic goddess of fertility and sexual love, worshiped by the Phoenicians and others: see also ASHTORETH, ISHTAR."

Isis is the "divine mother" of ancient Egypt. She was known as the great goddess of magic and "universal nature," and used her powers to raise her dead (and dismembered) husband Osiris back to life (Osiris was represented as the Sun, he also ruled the underworld). As "Virgin of the World," Isis birthed Horus, the Egyptian god of the sun and moon, day and night. Metaphorically speaking, Isis is the celestial mother of the Sun (son) of god. It was her son, Horus, who eventually killed Typhon, the Egyptian devil. And, according to legend, Isis–mother of all–remains eternally virgin. She is often portrayed "as the virgin with child," and is regularly depicted as one crowned with a lunar orb and the horns of a bull.

Eros, the Greek god of love and sexual desire (the word eros, which is found in the Iliad by Homer, is a common noun meaning sexual desire).

Allah, the almighty reality which is god of this world.

Christ, who is Truth, the savior.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by dave3712

All who are genuinely committed to the advancement of women can and must offer a woman or a girl who is pregnant, frightened,
and alone a better alternative than the destruction of her own unborn child ~ Mary Ann Glendon

Agreed

So the way of Eros is to promote sexual promiscuity among straights so as to liberalize the sexual mores and finally allow gays out into the general society with impunity.

This requires a god, Eros, and his consort goddess Istar to command abortion.

This alternative to illegitimacy is not acceptable to the Queen of Heaven, Isis, "Virgin of the World," so she and her Feminists cohorts deem Welfare as the alternative to Allah's 8-10 annual honor killings.

Then there is Christ of the Trinity, who preachs Truth as the way and life best to lead, who says do not srone the baby or harlot, but be wise peoples who sin no more.
Be sexually prundent as in 1945, before the feminist sexual revolution.

As a feminist who is and always has been staunchly anti-abortion without exceptions, what you posted has nothing whatsoever to do with my POV.

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Delmar

I didn't notice, until now, that you started a new thread on this subject. I am wondering, how many threads that accuse the God of the Bible of being an evil tyrant, do you think the moderators of a Christian forum need to tolerate?

The Truth concerns facing the Facts-of-Life.
The God of the living is our tyrant.
That IS the definition of the power of God.


Isa 45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:
I, (both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for possible great misfortune), evil:
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).




His son, i.e.; knowing the Truth, saves us from the evil God can and does command upon us.

[Delmar]

Originally Posted by dave3712

The Truth concerns facing the Facts-of-Life.
The God of the living is our tyrant.
That IS the definition of the power of God.


Isa 45:7
I, (almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:
I, (both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (the environment for possible great misfortune), evil:
I, (both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), do all these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).




His son, i.e.; knowing the Truth, saves us from the evil God can and does command upon us.

Aren't you a ray of sunshine?

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by Delmar

Aren't you a ray of sunshine?

Thatseems tobe the major mental disability for humanity, that they prefer no news to bad news, and avoid the truth if it opposes their preconceived ideas.

That is the basis for the cultural Political Correctness that has been instituted in a way which now supercedes the regulation of behavior by the Institution of Law and Order, even.

We just saw the duly authorized Homeowners Association agent, Zimmerman, all but convicted by the Feelings expressed by people who have come to believe Racial Profiling is behind asking a black kid what he is doing in a walled off Community of Private Property owners in a Gated Devlopment of homes.

We also have a church now convinced that God doesn't burn peoples' hands if they put them in the fire, intentionally or ignorantly.

What I see is that Truth makes even christian America cringe at firt, until by the spilling of MartinLuther King's blood they finally face the Facts and then, after their delay ended in martyrdom, they change their behavior.

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

Who'd know the difference? Someone 'elect' would know that a dead infant was part of the non elect somehow? Otherwise most folk find the death of such a child utterly tragic and horrific.

No one knows the difference...the theological point about whether the child's spirit automatically goes to heaven at death or not has nothing to do with the feelings of the parents involved, as horrible as they are.

The point was a young death does not prove either instant salvation nor damnation.

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

'Pre Conception Existence Theology'? Where does that come from? Does that mean that everyone had a free will choice to be with God prior to 'earth' or only the "elect"? Frankly, good for those who balked because they showed some empathy for their fellow man....

PCE came from our struggles with the doctrines of free will, death, Adamic sin and election many years ago from the Holy Spirit.

It posits that every person created in the image of GOD, intelligent, creative and capable of making a true free will decision about who they wanted to be in what kind of reality did, in fact, come to the time of making just such a true free will decision.

As for those who balked because they showed some empathy, you hit the nail on the head. They thought that they were better, more empathetic and moral than GOD, who wanted to damn the non-elect. This was the exact choice that caused the fall of some of the elect, necessitating the earth's creation, Christ's death on the cross and the long road to sancification unto holiness.

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

Well that's pretty vague. What led up to this 'time'? How could it have been 'free will' if it was only the 'elect' that were capable of making such a choice? You are a Calvinist?

Of course it's vague...I'm not going to paste a whole book of theology in here, am I? Restraints on my expression by the format cause vagueness, but that is why I answer questions.

Again, PCE insists that everyone made their true free will decision of the same choice, not just the elect. And no, I fail at Calvinism just as badly as I fail at Arminianism.

[Aside: how does restricting a choice to only some people make that choice not by free will? Free will only means uncoereced by anything at all.]

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

So you're part of the 'fallen elect' then? Still, as long as you're part of it and not like the 'vile scum' who are condemned....or human beings in other words....

All sinners who come to Christ are part of the fallen elect and I certainly hope that that includes me. If that hope makes me gulty of something, I fail to see what.

Ahhh, a little sympathy for the devil, quite a popular tune in these days. "Vile scum" summs it up; vile scum who are living for awhile as our fellow human beings until the judgment day, yes.

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

So how many who died in Auschwitz were part of the 'elect'? The World Trade Center? All those raped, molested and murdered? Nice plan....

How would I know?

...but your list of the evils of the vile scum we are to learn about so that we will rescind our sympathy and empathy and let GOD do as HE wills is the whole point of life, as per the wheat and the tares.

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

According to you such choices were seemingly made before any life was even born on earth.

Yes, you got it. Our self created eternal characters were chosen by us before earth was created

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

Wow, who would have thought compassion or love for others well being could be sinful....
...
Yep. Empathy for those who are fallible and flawed is just not acceptable.

To love someone and put them before GOD is the essence of idolatry, so loving someone against GOD's will is very sinful.

During the elect's time making their choices, their empathy was a rejection of GOD's will that the non-elect be damned, and that rejection of GOD is the sin. HE did not say "hate your friends who became my eternal enemies by rejecting ME" but "come out from among them, be separate in your heart and trust me to be just and righteous."

Putting our own feelings above GOD's will is the idolatry.

On earth though, not knowing who is elect and who is not, our call is to treat everyone fairly and to love each other while we learn to hate evil and do good.

Originally Posted by Arthur Brain

Well, my sister was devastated at the time and mourns the loss years later. She doesn't see the death as a "tiny issue".

No one sees the death of any family member as a "tiny issue"... you misquote me:

Originally Posted by Ted

Some elect fell into sin by the slimmest of margins...ie they rebelled over a tiny issue which was resolved for them to seek redemption merely by being in a foetus and suffering death...that is all it took for GOD to bring them back to their true free will decison to accept HIS plan for them.

The tiny issue was their choice to sin pre-earth, tiny trying to convey that their rejection of GOD's plan was very light or slight so that just the time in the womb and then suffering death could bring them back to their first true free will position of accepting GOD's plan for their life.

In other words they did not need a whole life of suffering to learn to reject evil and become holy like the rest of us.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by bybee

The death of a baby is extremely traumatic and devastating to it's mother. The father, grandparents and extended family have, generally, been awaiting the birth with joy and anticipation.
It is through his love for his woman carrying his child that a man comes close to the mystery of life. But a woman forms the child within her body. At the first flutterings of the growing child within, the mother and child become intensely bonded. Once this bond is in place it is not broken. I was adopted. And yet, my bond to my mother was in place until her death.
Isaac was promised to both Sarah and Abraham. Samuel was a child promised to his mother.


There are exceptions I know.

Well said.

Because I believe we existed pre-earth and knew each other then, I think that is when the bond was created and GOD has allowed us to live with our true loves again on earth within these bonds while we learn to become mature in our faith.

Peace, Ted

[Arthur Brain]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

No one knows the difference...the theological point about whether the child's spirit automatically goes to heaven at death or not has nothing to do with the feelings of the parents involved, as horrible as they are.

The point was a young death does not prove either instant salvation nor damnation.

No, it just proves a tragedy each and ever time it occurs.

PCE came from our struggles with the doctrines of free will, death, Adamic sin and election many years ago from the Holy Spirit.

And others will say that yours is a false doctrine with revelation from the same. Not a very convincing argument in itself.

It posits that every person created in the image of GOD, intelligent, creative and capable of making a true free will decision about who they wanted to be in what kind of reality did, in fact, come to the time of making just such a true free will decision.

So they made this decision in the actual presence of God? Knowing full well that eternal suffering would await should they choose that following a brief existence on earth?

As for those who balked because they showed some empathy, you hit the nail on the head. They thought that they were better, more empathetic and moral than GOD, who wanted to damn the non-elect. This was the exact choice that caused the fall of some of the elect, necessitating the earth's creation, Christ's death on the cross and the long road to sancification unto holiness.

I was under the impression that the bible states Christ's sacrifice was for all, not just a few. This just smacks of dogma gone nuts.

Of course it's vague...I'm not going to paste a whole book of theology in here, am I? Restraints on my expression by the format cause vagueness, but that is why I answer questions.

Clarity usually helps to a degree.

Again, PCE insists that everyone made their true free will decision of the same choice, not just the elect. And no, I fail at Calvinism just as badly as I fail at Arminianism.

Well you certainly have a great deal more in common with Calvinism.

[Aside: how does restricting a choice to only some people make that choice not by free will? Free will only means uncoereced by anything at all.]

I don't believe in absolute free will as it is. There's too many factors from upbringing, genetics, environment etc to make it possible IMO.

All sinners who come to Christ are part of the fallen elect and I certainly hope that that includes me. If that hope makes me gulty of something, I fail to see what.

Selfishness? You'd hardly be alone in that really to be fair but when I see stuff like Edwards' 'Sinners In The Hands Of Angry God' it smacks of some of the most appalling callousness towards other beings like ourselves.

Ahhh, a little sympathy for the devil, quite a popular tune in these days. "Vile scum" summs it up; vile scum who are living for awhile as our fellow human beings until the judgment day, yes.

Rather it's empathy for those who are fallible and fragile just like us. Bloodlust isn't a trait I generally have sympathy with.

How would I know?

...but your list of the evils of the vile scum we are to learn about so that we will rescind our sympathy and empathy and let GOD do as HE wills is the whole point of life, as per the wheat and the tares.

Right, so the children strangled in concentration camps are deserving of sympathy until it transpires that in this former "life" of theirs they'd made the bizarre 'decision' to choose eternal damnation. I would say it's almost a hideously *neat* way to justify it except the 'logic' for it is so utterly flawed and it's just in fact hideous.

Yes, you got it. Our self created eternal characters were chosen by us before earth was created

So what form would these characters be prior to earth incarnation? Male and female still?

To love someone and put them before GOD is the essence of idolatry, so loving someone against GOD's will is very sinful.

What does the bible say about greater love again?

During the elect's time making their choices, their empathy was a rejection of GOD's will that the non-elect be damned, and that rejection of GOD is the sin. HE did not say "hate your friends who became my eternal enemies by rejecting ME" but "come out from among them, be separate in your heart and trust me to be just and righteous."

Putting our own feelings above GOD's will is the idolatry.

If compassion is idolatry then I'd sooner be guilty of it than callousness.

On earth though, not knowing who is elect and who is not, our call is to treat everyone fairly and to love each other while we learn to hate evil and do good.

I suppose rejoicing at the suffering of the 'reprobate' comes afterwards then?

No one sees the death of any family member as a "tiny issue"... you misquote me:


The tiny issue was their choice to sin pre-earth, tiny trying to convey that their rejection of GOD's plan was very light or slight so that just the time in the womb and then suffering death could bring them back to their first true free will position of accepting GOD's plan for their life.

In other words they did not need a whole life of suffering to learn to reject evil and become holy like the rest of us.

Charming....

Peace, Ted

Peace to you as well, if not your doctrine.