[ttruscott]

So you accept that you have free will here on earth? How do you define it? If a gun to your head is not free will, how about a threat about tomorrow or your mother scolding you about an issue years ago that you have forgotten about it but the influence lingers??

If our ordinary everyday decision making is free will, how would you deny that your cat has free will? Our dogs make decisions all the time and they even "sin" by choosing to do things they know are forbidden. Wherein is this different from us?

Does a trained pet still have free will? A conditioned pet? What about a wild animal, full of instincts and reactions?

Is this type of decision making free enough to make you guilty of eternal sin, worthy of being damned without salvation? And if it is not, why then are we stuck with it? Is GOD unable to do better or does it not matter?


Peace, Ted

[Eeset]

I made a decision to reply. There you have it, free will. Of course it probably counts as a sin.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

So you accept that you have free will here on earth? How do you define it? If a gun to your head is not free will, how about a threat about tomorrow or your mother scolding you about an issue years ago that you have forgotten about it but the influence lingers??

You still have free will when a gun is put to your head, you're just under intense "influence."

If our ordinary everyday decision making is free will, how would you deny that your cat has free will? Our dogs make decisions all the time and they even "sin" by choosing to do things they know are forbidden. Wherein is this different from us?

Part of the purpose of free will for humans is that we are moral beings. We distinguish from right and wrong, and are able to distinguish between them.

Animals are instinctive. They have no sense of morality.

Does a trained pet still have free will? A conditioned pet? What about a wild animal, full of instincts and reactions?

Animals do not have free willl.

[Eeset]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

Animals do not have free willl.

You need to meet my cat.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by Eeset

You need to meet my cat.

I have one. They're diabolical

[chrysostom]

Descartes actually kicked a dog to demonstrate his belief that it was just a machine
and
I agree
but
I don't kick dogs

I would like to kick some of their owners

[Jason0047]

Animals are not going to be at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10) (1 Peter 4:17) (Revelation 20:11-15). They are were never given the same choice as Adam and Eve to wrongfully obtain the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:1-11). They are excluded from this choice. Animals are unaware of doing good or bad when it comes to their relationship with God. Animals have limited decision making and or free will. For they do not have the full range of free will as man does (To choose God or not to choose God). Animals are a reflection of the Creation. When we see animals doing bad things, this is simply from the curse of the fall. It is not their fault, but man's fault for the state that they are in. For all of Creation groans because of man's sin (Romans 8:22). We were supposed to have a good and perfect dominion over them (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 1:28), but we blew it (and now sin has darkened the rulership that we have over them). We dropped the ball in our walk with God and we need Him to redeem us (If we make the human free will choice to accept Him as our Lord and our Savior and continue to live for Him of course) (John 3:16) (Romans 5:17) (Romans 10:13) (Romans 12:1).

...

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Eeset

I made a decision to reply. There you have it, free will. Of course it probably counts as a sin.

Decision making ≠ free will or if you made your decsion because someone threatened your life, that too would be free will.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

You still have free will when a gun is put to your head, you're just under intense "influence."

Part of the purpose of free will for humans is that we are moral beings. We distinguish from right and wrong, and are able to distinguish between them.

Animals are instinctive. They have no sense of morality.

Animals do not have free willl.

I've seen sneakiness and guilt in my dogs, indicating some kind of moral awareness. I 've also seen more thought then mere instinct in them and in some humans I've met, instinct oviously ruled stronger than any thoughtfulness.

I think we still have a ways to go here...

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by chrysostom

Descartes actually kicked a dog to demonstrate his belief that it was just a machine
and
I agree
but
I don't kick dogs

I would like to kick some of their owners

Sorry - he might be right but his proof is wrong. Kick a soldier and you will get an instant instinctive reaction from him. Kick a child and you will get an instinctive reaction from the father.

Having the instinct to avoid further hurt is not mechanical in everything.

Will defined:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will
noun
1.
the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.
2.
power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
3.
the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.
4.
wish or desire: to submit against one's will.
5.
purpose or determination, often hearty or stubborn determination; willfulness: to have the will to succeed.

I see all these things in animal behaviour. Pets choose things; they make decisions and they decide to break the rules.

They have a will alright but is it free enough to send them to hell for their rebellion to the command to stay out of the compost! ?

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Jason0047

Animals are not going to be at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10) (1 Peter 4:17) (Revelation 20:11-15). They are were never given the same choice as Adam and Eve to wrongfully obtain the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:1-11). They are excluded from this choice. Animals are unaware of doing good or bad when it comes to their relationship with God. Animals have limited decision making and or free will. For they do not have the full range of free will as man does (To choose God or not to choose God). Animals are a reflection of the Creation. When we see animals doing bad things, this is simply from the curse of the fall. It is not their fault, but man's fault for the state that they are in. For all of Creation groans because of man's sin (Romans 8:22). We were supposed to have a good and perfect dominion over them (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 1:28), but we blew it (and now sin has darkened the rulership that we have over them). We dropped the ball in our walk with God and we need Him to redeem us (If we make the human free will choice to accept Him as our Lord and our Savior and continue to live for Him of course) (John 3:16) (Romans 5:17) (Romans 10:13) (Romans 12:1).

...

Animals have limited decision making and or free will. For they do not have the full range of free will as man does (To choose God or not to choose God).

Very clear thank you...we are held to a higher standard because we are capable of higher understanding of complexities...

but do you think that the "free" nature of our will is any less free in an animal?

Peace, Ted

[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by Jason0047

When we see animals doing bad things, this is simply from the curse of the fall. It is not their fault, but man's fault for the state that they are in.

[Jason0047]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

Animals have limited decision making and or free will. For they do not have the full range of free will as man does (To choose God or not to choose God). Very clear thank you...we are held to a higher standard because we are capable of higher understanding of complexities...

Ted:

You are most welcome.

but do you think that the "free" nature of our will is any less free in an animal?

Well, yes. An animal's free will is a lot less "free" than that of humans. They are very limited in their decisions. The animals free will is more under the control or guided by either it's master or it's surrounding environment (to survive). A human master can even be sinful around an animal and the animal does not know it is wrong, unless the sin physically hurts the animal (or it's master). Some animals can be even conditioned or behave in a way that would emulate human sin. Which is not good. However, the animal ultimately is not aware of it's sinful activities (that are not harmful physically) and therefore is not held accountable like a human is for sinning. They just do not have the capacity to understand such things. The choice is not there for them to know.

"Be you not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, else they come not near unto you." ~ (Psalm 32:9)

So in conclusion:
I would have to say that they do not have "true or complete free will" because they cannot make the ultimate free will choice "in complete knowledge and understanding" (of their actions) to do either good or evil and be held accountable for it. Sure, a pack of wolves can eat a person, but this is more of the result of the Fall and the curse of sin than it does to do with the wolves decision to eat the wrong thing. Although, God does require that if a beast (or a man) takes the life of a human, then according to the law, they are supposed to exact justice by requiring the blood of it (for it's offense) (Genesis 9:5-6).

I hope this helps, my friend.

May God bless you this wonderful day.

Sincerely,

~Jason.

...

[ttruscott]

Well guys, it seems like although we have restrictions on the freedom of our wills, dogs are worse of than we are, constrained by much more.

But what would it look like if we removed the constraints upon our will so that there can be no coercion upon our choices from anywhere?

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in our created nature could force us to choose love or hate, good or evil. (ie genetics, biology, any propensity to seek good or evil)

Nothing in our experience could force us to choose love or hate, good or evil. (no experience of GOD's power or divinity, for instance)

Nothing in our understanding or knowledge of reality could force us to choose good or evil, love or hate. (All teaching about reality or the future or morality would have to be without proof or this proof would influence /constrain them to choose what was best for their self interest only, not their true deepest desire.)

So, if it could be set up so all these human constraints upon the freeness of our will could be removed,

would in fact, our decision making actually be fully free from coercion?

Peace, Ted