Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
"dead" in scripture also means alienated from God as well as non functioning or extinct.
missing ths point makes for utter absurdity.
If I no longer live is literal and not hyperbole then it is not i that obey it is not i that love, it is not i that need to repent of anything.
The "dead" I was referring to is our old self which is alienated from God and no longer exists.
Such as in Luke 9:24, Romans 6:4, Romans 6:11, Galatians 5:24, Ephesians 4:22-24,
Colossians 2:11-13, Colossians 3:9, 2 Timothy 2:11.
Us no longer living is metaphorical, though it is no less real or an exaggeration, if you believe in regeneration.
You do love, obey, repent, but it is by the power of God that you can now truly do these things.
These are gifts of the Spirit, and not of your own doing.
I see the importance being, that it is no longer I that live, but Christ in me. So if the very substance of your life is Christ. Any faith that is had is upheld by Him. If you are dead, where will you obtain this faith, and what will you attribute it to?
It's by the Power of the Gospel message.
Romans 10:16-18
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
this is the equivocal fallacy i was talking about.
it stems from stumbling over the word OF.
put it this way
the persecution OF the church was when the church was persecuted. or does it mean when the church itself persecutes (well, it has done its share). Does the persecution of diocletian mean that diocletian was persecuted or that he did the persecution. the word Of is like that.
"the faith of christ" means the gospel or the christian faith. it does not and cannot mean that Jesus NOW trusts anything. that he did trust when he was in teh days of his flesh does not mean that he trusts anything now, for as omnipotent God he knows everything
you have hopelessly twisted the concepts by twisting the words.
Your examples are poor. In Romans 3, would it be our faith in Christ unto all them that believe...? No.
Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
How about this one...have not the faith in our Lord...with respect of persons?
James 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
There is a place for our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ is how He overcame the world. He was obedient unto death. Obedience is the outworking of faith. Jesus is God, but He was also a man. That man had faith, He trusted in the Father, He never did His own will, nor did He shirk the task that lay before Him. He could not have done what He did without faith...which is why He pleased the Father, for without faith it is impossible to please God.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
It was His faith, while in the flesh, that revealed the righteousness of God, and by which He overcame sin and death.
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Is it our faith that makes us righteous? No, it's by our faith we are declared righteous...justified unto God. It was the faith of the Righteous (Just) One that took away our sin...not our own righteousness. We aren't given LIFE because we are righteous...we are given LIFE when we have faith in the Righteous One.
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
What do you say "from faith to faith" means? Rom. 1:17
I think the subject by the original poster is on who maintains the faith, represented in Galatians 2:20, not about faith/believing unto salvation.
If the discussion is about how faith comes about, then yes definitely through the Gospel, Romans 1:16-17.
Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith and Love abounded in Him.
1 Tim. 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
Who maintains the faith? Well, our faith waxes and wanes.
The Promise comes by the faith of Jesus Christ...that it might be given to them that believe. From faith to faith. Rom. 1:17
The Promise is only made available because of the faith of Christ in His obedience unto death....His shedding of the blood. His being the Spotless Lamb.
Gal. 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The Promises come by the faith of Jesus Christ, which we can then partake of and then build up and add to our faith.
2 Peter 1:4-8
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The "dead" I was referring to is our old self which is alienated from God and no longer exists.
Such as in Luke 9:24, Romans 6:4, Romans 6:11, Galatians 5:24, Ephesians 4:22-24,
Colossians 2:11-13, Colossians 3:9, 2 Timothy 2:11.
Us no longer living is metaphorical, though it is no less real or an exaggeration, if you believe in regeneration.
You do love, obey, repent, but it is by the power of God that you can now truly do these things.
These are gifts of the Spirit, and not of your own doing.
Ah...that explains a lot. I was not understanding what you meant.
Ah...that explains a lot. I was not understanding what you meant.
I could see where it would get confusing reading my posts out of context, they were originally replies to remarks from Strefanash about my previous posts. At any rate, I enjoyed your explanations.
I think the subject by the original poster is on who maintains the faith, represented in Galatians 2:20, not about faith/believing unto salvation.
If the discussion is about how faith comes about, then yes definitely through the Gospel, Romans 1:16-17.
And what gospel would that be for the ignorant Indian in the South American jungle who lives his live by the rules of his heart__aided by what he sees in nature that convinces him of God? Is God just in condemning innocent ignorance due to lack of hearing the gospel? If we say He would not condemn such a one then, what really is the gospel for?
"Except you receive as a little child . . "
OMT,
Quote:
You do love, obey, repent, but it is by the power of God that you can now truly do these things.
These are gifts of the Spirit, and not of your own doing.
I believe this but don't believe they are gifts but rather the result of a relationship.
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind." . . . and God "gives that one the capacity" for these things.
And what gospel would that be for the ignorant Indian in the South American jungle who lives his live by the rules of his heart__aided by what he sees in nature that convinces him of God? Is God just in condemning innocent ignorance due to lack of hearing the gospel? If we say He would not condemn such a one then, what really is the gospel for?
"Except you receive as a little child . . "
Where is the gospel for the ignorant Indian?
Romans 10:14-15 (ESV)
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
If God condemns anyone it is Just. I will not sit in His seat; I thoroughly trust in God to deal rightly with said Indian, till that day comes it is our job to preach the gospel, and make disciples.
I believe this but don't believe they are gifts but rather the result of a relationship.
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind." . . . and God "gives that one the capacity" for these things.
Maybe better worded as empowering of the Holy Spirit? Thus producing the fruits of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-26(ESV)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
If God condemns anyone it is Just. I will not sit in His seat; I thoroughly trust in God to deal rightly with said Indian, till that day comes it is our job to preach the gospel, and make disciples.
"Man is without excuse". My point__brother, is that no one needs the gospel for believing there is a God. Jesus Christ is another matter, where the preacher needs be sent because: "how shall they believe without one being sent"? Do you think I can get your agreement on that?
"Man is without excuse". My point__brother, is that no one needs the gospel for believing there is a God. Jesus Christ is another matter, where the preacher needs be sent because: "how shall they believe without one being sent"? Do you think I can get your agreement on that?
Which part are you looking for agreement on? If about that the gospel is not needed to know there is a God, Yes I agree...
Romans 1:20(ESV)
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
If concerning Christ and about a preacher being sent? Then yes I also agree, that is why I originally posted Romans 10:14-15.
Which part are you looking for agreement on? If about that the gospel is not needed to know there is a God, Yes I agree...
Romans 1:20(ESV)
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
If concerning Christ and about a preacher being sent? Then yes I also agree, that is why I originally posted Romans 10:14-15.
So I will give you an Amen
Good. I can assume we will be on the same side when disscussing the fundamentals. I like that. . . Thank you.
Perhaps you would present what you believe the reason for preaching Jesus is purposed to accomplish within the one who is seen as righteous in the sight of God?
Good. I can assume we will be on the same side when disscussing the fundamentals. I like that. . . Thank you.
Perhaps you would present what you believe the reason for preaching Jesus is purposed to accomplish within the one who is seen as righteous in the sight of God?
Are you asking what effect preaching the gospel has upon the true believer that is preaching it? I may not be understanding you correctly?
But if that is your question, it accomplishes numerous things, more then I'm willing to write down at the moment because I need to go to sleep. Also not simply preaching it, but also hearing it, personally I need the gospel daily, not as a question of my salvation but an affirmation of it.
Are you asking what effect preaching the gospel has upon the true believer that is preaching it? I may not be understanding you correctly?
But if that is your question, it accomplishes numerous things, more then I'm willing to write down at the moment because I need to go to sleep. Also not simply preaching it, but also hearing it, personally I need the gospel daily, not as a question of my salvation but an affirmation of it.
1. No. I am asking as I asked it. . . ."accomplish within the one who is seen as righteous in the sight of God"? __ like our SA Indian friend who never heard it.
2. Why do you need the gospel to affirm you when you need be teaching it to affirm others? Heb. 6:1,2.
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