why do u think people are against the Catholic Church?
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Slogan/motto:
love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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June 20th, 2012, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG.
I can speak from experience on this one. I was raised Catholic but not very well educated in the faith. When I reached my teen years I was influenced by Protestant ideas via radio and TV programs and my mother's increasing involvement in non-Catholic pentecostal groups. All together, it led me into thinking that the Catholic Church was an aberation from the "original Christian church", whatever that was. I persisted in this genuinely and honestly ignorant state for the better part of 20 yrs. at which point I decided to open-mindedly reconsider my presuppositions. Upon doing so, I discovered that the "Catholicism" I was against was largely a caricature and that my anti-Catholic prejudice was based more on misinformation and misunderstanding than anything else. After much study I came to realize that the Catholic Church (as well as the Orthodox/Coptic traditions) represented the closest thing to "original Christianity" as one could hope to get. Ironically, it was Protestantism that I came to realize as the actual aberation. Though I have not converted to Catholicism as a result, I have acquired a deep appreciation for the early, original Church(es) and their ongoing role(s) in God's redemptive plan for Man.
thank u so much for this... very refreshing to read after all the antiCatholic nonsense (distorotions of history, downright lies about history/teachings of the Church... etc) one finds on the forums.. and in society in general.
what i dont get is why supposed "Christians" attack another Christian Church, even if they cannot believe in some of its doctrines... and i admit that from the outside looking in, Catholicism looks odd in some ways... but that is from the o/side looking in... Still, some do not listen to those who are "in"... and that narrow minded bigotry... well, frankly, it is very disturbing...
but in any c ase... why are these alleged Christians not fighting SATAN???
Why are they not going into the bars and preaching like Billy Graham did when he was young? No, they are too scared to do that... apprntly
would rather attack other christians...
I love what Frederick Douglass said about the hypocricy of protestant christians who owned slaves.. even would BREED slaves... put a black woman into a room with a strange Black man (in at least one case, the man was married) and ... geeze...
then they would go to "church" on Sunday and wax all puritanical about fornicators...
You will not be properly informed about the Roman Catholic church if you only read what the antiCatholic produces. Would you agree with that also?
For sure, and in fact I am very careful to read anything in the context of the likely biases held by the writer. I work hard to avoid making strawman arguments, and I will retract and apologise for anything I have claimed about the Catholic church that can be shown to be untrue.
That is why I take care to quote the Vatican website as often as possible, for example when earlier I demonstrated that in fact the canon law is still in place that allows for a bishop to abduct a child from his parents, and it's still in there that a bishop decides whether an allegation of child abuse is really child abuse before any consideration is made of picking up the phone and calling the police. The bishop also decides whether it is grave enough to warrant informing the Vatican.
Don't just believe rhetoric, check out the history.
The history of your church stinks. You should learn more about it, and not just from Catholic apologists.
I can speak from experience on this one. I was raised Catholic but not very well educated in the faith. When I reached my teen years I was influenced by Protestant ideas via radio and TV programs and my mother's increasing involvement in non-Catholic pentecostal groups. All together, it led me into thinking that the Catholic Church was an aberation from the "original Christian church", whatever that was. I persisted in this genuinely and honestly ignorant state for the better part of 20 yrs. at which point I decided to open-mindedly reconsider my presuppositions. Upon doing so, I discovered that the "Catholicism" I was against was largely a caricature and that my anti-Catholic prejudice was based more on misinformation and misunderstanding than anything else. After much study I came to realize that the Catholic Church (as well as the Orthodox/Coptic traditions) represented the closest thing to "original Christianity" as one could hope to get. Ironically, it was Protestantism that I came to realize as the actual aberation. Though I have not converted to Catholicism as a result, I have acquired a deep appreciation for the early, original Church(es) and their ongoing role(s) in God's redemptive plan for Man.
So what about the opposition to that Catholic church that isn't "anti-catholic" but is anti-covering up child rape and anti-fascism and anti-human rights abuse and anti-meddling in the sovereign affairs of democratic countries where the RCC aims to gain financial advantage at the expense of taxpayers without a democratic mandate, but often through bullying leaders with threats of excommunication? That's got nothing to do with Jesus, surely.
Slogan/motto:
love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
Reputation:
June 21st, 2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuu
For sure, and in fact I am very careful to read anything in the context of the likely biases held by the writer. I work hard to avoid making strawman arguments, and I will retract and apologise for anything I have claimed about the Catholic church that can be shown to be untrue.
That is why I take care to quote the Vatican website as often as possible, for example when earlier I demonstrated that in fact the canon law is still in place that allows for a bishop to abduct a child from his parents, and it's still in there that a bishop decides whether an allegation of child abuse is really child abuse before any consideration is made of picking up the phone and calling the police. The bishop also decides whether it is grave enough to warrant informing the Vatican.
Don't just believe rhetoric, check out the history.
The history of your church stinks. You should learn more about it, and not just from Catholic apologists.
Stuart
i love my Church
and you have not shown where in Vatican documents this is said
Slogan/motto:
Go in peace, to love and serve the Lord!
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June 21st, 2012, 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuu
So what about the opposition to that Catholic church that isn't "anti-catholic" but is anti-covering up child rape and anti-fascism and anti-human rights abuse and anti-meddling in the sovereign affairs of democratic countries where the RCC aims to gain financial advantage at the expense of taxpayers without a democratic mandate, but often through bullying leaders with threats of excommunication? That's got nothing to do with Jesus, surely.
Or maybe the RCC thinks it does.
Stuart
My post wasn't intended as an apologetic for the Catholic/Orthodox or Coptic Churches or any associations (real or imagined) with their organizations. Regardless of one's opinions of these churches, they are irrefutably representative of the earliest form(s) of Christianity and are, therefore, legitimately "Christian" in the most basic sense of the term.
and you have not shown where in Vatican documents this is said
but even if so
humans are human
the Church is above human stuff
(tho it is also human... like Christ)
I have shown the canon law that says all of that, in other threads in the past. I'm not going to go searching for the references again now. But anyone who wants to know where to start looking could try the Wikipedia article on crimen sollicitationis then follow the links near the bottom, some of which can lead you to the canon law on the Vatican website.
But now you are hedging your bets. If it turns out that actually I am right about your monstrous church still enshrining in its constitution the abuse of parental rights and the hushing up of child rape, then you will instead blame "sinners".
But of course that doesn't work, does it. Because the very basis of how your church proceeds, its internal rules in the form of its constitutional canon law, is the embodiment of what you call sin.
There has to come a time in this where you must conclude that this church is the largest unbusted pedophile ring in the world - you can't just say it is a collection of sinners who are each individually responsible, when what we are talking about is a conspiracy carried out according to the rules of the church.
The history of your church stinks. You should learn more about it, and not just from Catholic apologists.
kinda hard to give credit to someone who says things like this...
Why is it? If you don't know about the history of your church, and you seem to reject some sources out of hand regardless of what they have to say, then in what position are you to comment? Even if you are skeptical of such claims, at least you should check them out. But, as we have agreed, it would be a mistake to just read Catholic apologia.
What you are really looking for is someone who is well-informed about history, appears to have a scholarly attitude in that on many issues shows the ability to balance arguments, and is not Catholic but nevertheless will argue against what it would be convenient for that person to claim, because the evidence disagrees with what would be convenient for that person - compare this with the situation of the University of Tel Aviv archeologists, who had all the reason in the world to scientifically confirm the Exodus, virtually the Israeli title deeds for some people anyway. But what did they find? There is no archeological evidence to support the Exodus story whatever, and there should be if it is true.
So, find the enthusiastically protestant historian who nevertheless gives credit to the RCC, and perhaps we should find that more convincing. Of course I doubt that is a likely course of action by anyone promoting Vatican spin here.
Slogan/motto:
love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
Reputation:
June 24th, 2012, 01:22 PM
[quote=Stuu;3115649]I have shown the canon law that says all of that, in other threads in the past. I'm not going to go searching for the references again now. But anyone who wants to know where to start looking could try the Wikipedia article on [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_Stuart[/QUOTE]
i dont get my info from Wiki
i am very selective in what i read... learned the hard way to be like that...
TSF is a perfect example, of the Brainwashing of the RC Church and
the Hold Satan has over their perverted and deceived Minds.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
I think it involves one or more of the following reasons
one is more liberal than the Church and therefore doesn't want to be told s/he is wrong (artif b control, etc)
one is living with some particular sin s/he doesn't want 2 give up, which is similar to the 1st thing on the list
one has been lied to by antiCatholic people... and/or the infamous Jack Chick (funny.. how i am loath to put Chick in the People category...)
and... well, u other Catholics.. and nonCatholics...
maybe u have some different reasons
I'm not against the Catholic Church- I'm for the Bible, for Jesus Christ and for Grace alone. Things that from my view the Catholic church don't believe are enough.
"Strong people are harder to kill and more useful in general" -Mark Rippetoe
It seems to me it is more scathing to keep the devil frocked... a Hester Pyrne with her "A" as adulterer... for all to see.
"This then is what it means to be born again of water and Spirit: just as our dying is effected in the water, our living is wrought in the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there."--St Basil the Great (ca. 350 AD)
Slogan/motto:
To give up all and follow my Beloved where ever He leads me.
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June 25th, 2012, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisServant
It's not so much the abusers... its the bishops, cardinals and Pope which tried to hide the crimes that people find equally detestable as the actual abusers themselves.
AND the culture that would allow them to do what they did, let alone the culture that is preventing them from being brought to justice.
Like that man who knew a child was being raped in the shower by the coach and yet did NOTHING but walk away...
That same culture is across the board tragically enough.
"This then is what it means to be born again of water and Spirit: just as our dying is effected in the water, our living is wrought in the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there."--St Basil the Great (ca. 350 AD)
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