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Slogan/motto:
Hands that help are holier than lips that pray.
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June 15th, 2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
As a Government Certified Machinist & Millwright, I made $68.18 / hr. when I was teaching at a Government supported school here in Toronto teaching Millwright Apprentices 7 years ago.
My husband works with a Millwright and I know for certain he doesn't make that much money. I think less than half of it, actually. He's been a Millwright for at least 20 years (more like 30 I think) and is a contractor for Proctor & Gamble.
I believe that the Universe is one being, all its parts are different expressions of the same energy,
and they are all in communication with each other, therefore parts of one organic whole.
This whole is in all its parts so beautiful, and is felt by me to be so intensely in earnest, that I am compelled to love it and to think of it as divine
- Robinson Jeffers
Surely it is possible to construct a different economy. Now what would happen if.....
Every person who is 18 or older gets paid 50,000 per year and...
All ownership in all businesses is pooled and owned by everyone and ...
If there is excess profit from all the businesses it is paid out equally as a year end bonus and ...
If a person does not either work or attend full time to their children then they only get say 15,000 per year and ....
Full time students pay no tuition or room and board but only get 10,000 per year and ....
we work out the rest of the problems as they occur.
I think most of those measures are far too drastic to ever be agreed to. As I see it we have a couple of very big, glaring flaws in our economic system as it now exists. One is that capitalism is inherently anti-social. The whole purpose of any business enterprise in a capitalist system is to maximize the monetary return to it's investors. And this places the goal of every business enterprise at enmity with everyone else involved in the enterprise: with the employees, with the suppliers, with the customers, and even with the community and environment in which it operates. ALL these other participants are viewed as hostile impediments to the goal of maximizing investor profits.
This needs to be changed. It makes no sense for people to continue participating in a commercial enterprise that seeks to exploit them at any opportunity. And this is the system we have, right now.
The second big problem we need to address is the fact that we currently assign the value of everything based on personal desire, rather than actual need, or social value. This creates an economy based on placating selfish desire alone, while completely ignoring human necessity and social responsibility. If someone wants it, we will produce it and sell it for as much as their desire will cause them to pay. This, too, is antithetical to humanity, itself, and to society as a whole. And the damage of this incessant focus on our selfish desires can be seen all around us. We treat everything (and often even each other) as if it were just another product, the sole purpose of which is to respond to our personal desires and expectations.
And the third big problem we really need to address is the increasingly uneven distribution of wealth. The more wealth accumulates in the hands of a few, the more powerful and able they become at gaining yet even more wealth, power and opportunity. And this limits everyone else's wealth, power, and opportunity. Eventually the imbalance becomes so pronounced that the exploited must revolt against the exploiters just to survive. Society collapses in a bloody revolution, and the whole pattern begins to repeat itself.
We need to set up an economic system that assures that money (and therefor power and opportunity) can't pile up higher and higher in the hands of fewer and fewer people. To keep an economy and society healthy, we need for everyone to have access to the opportunities, it;s security, and it's rewards.
Location: On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
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Christian (Other)
Right Winger
Slogan/motto:
Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of your testimony; and love not your life unto death.
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June 15th, 2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
I think most of those measures are far too drastic to ever be agreed to. As I see it we have a couple of very big, glaring flaws in our economic system as it now exists. One is that capitalism is inherently anti-social. The whole purpose of any business enterprise in a capitalist system is to maximize the monetary return to it's investors. And this places the goal of every business enterprise at enmity with everyone else involved in the enterprise: with the employees, with the suppliers, with the customers, and even with the community and environment in which it operates. ALL these other participants are viewed as hostile impediments to the goal of maximizing investor profits.
This needs to be changed. It makes no sense for people to continue participating in a commercial enterprise that seeks to exploit them at any opportunity. And this is the system we have, right now.
The second big problem we need to address is the fact that we currently assign the value of everything based on personal desire, rather than actual need, or social value. This creates an economy based on placating selfish desire alone, while completely ignoring human necessity and social responsibility. If someone wants it, we will produce it and sell it for as much as their desire will cause them to pay. This, too, is antithetical to humanity, itself, and to society as a whole. And the damage of this incessant focus on our selfish desires can be seen all around us. We treat everything (and often even each other) as if it were just another product, the sole purpose of which is to respond to our personal desires and expectations.
And the third big problem we really need to address is the increasingly uneven distribution of wealth. The more wealth accumulates in the hands of a few, the more powerful and able they become at gaining yet even more wealth, power and opportunity. And this limits everyone else's wealth, power, and opportunity. Eventually the imbalance becomes so pronounced that the exploited must revolt against the exploiters just to survive. Society collapses in a bloody revolution, and the whole pattern begins to repeat itself.
We need to set up an economic system that assures that money (and therefor power and opportunity) can't pile up higher and higher in the hands of fewer and fewer people. To keep an economy and society healthy, we need for everyone to have access to the opportunities, it;s security, and it's rewards.
That economic system could be called individual capitalism to distinguish it from corporate capitalism.
With individual capitalism, an individual is able to work to gain as much wealth as he is able to gain without restrictions. The money is his to do with as he wills and when he dies it must be inherited by other individuals. Copyrights and patents would be held by an individual who would be able to benefit from his labors, and when he dies the copyright and patent would not go to another person. No corporation would be allowed to own any property, real or chattel, nor would any corporation be allowed to exist beyond specific bounds set by the state it is allowed to operate in.
Thanks to the brilliant efforts of our wise overlords.
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I do not see one single person who has a solution.
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I listen to all sides on the economic debates.
I bet you haven't heard of these guys... www.mises.org
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I don't have a solution either but I keep wondering about a few things. Why is one person's effort and product worth more than another?
Because value is subjective. A double inequality of preference is the one condition that enables trade. It is the fuel of the market. It allows two people to start with something they value less and end with something they value more. It is absolutely beautiful in my opinion.
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Why is a person's labor spent fixing a toilet or tilling a field worth less than a legislator or a captain of industry?
Market wages are set by the coordination of supply and demand for labor; there's not much more to it. Legislators, I would say, are paid with stolen money (not market set).
The plumber's wages are set by his scale of preferences for how he spends his time and by the employer's (person with the broken toilet) valuation of a fixed toilet, put simply. They come to an agreement and make a deal in which BOTH decide they value what they get (wage or fixed toilet) MORE than what they give (fixed toilet or wage).
The "captain of industry" receives a wage, but in a different way. He hasn't made one deal with one person, like they way the plumber and the customer work together, but has made many deals with many people over time (taking on risk and uncertainty). The manager-entrepreneur must coordinate many production processes under uncertainty, buy land, buy labor, buy factors of production, creatively and dynamically choose some end product that will be valued by future consumers, decide prices, and he must do this over time, meaning he has to decide whether the profits of the given business venture would exceed other possible business ventures or even just the accumulation of interest of the same amount of money sitting in the bank.
HOWEVER, even though the "captain of industry" has all of this to do, it should be noted that even all of his behavior can be described as just a long list (or aggregation) of the type of transaction the plumber and his customer/employer perform. The "captain of industry" still must make individual agreements with everybody he employs, offering a wage that they value more than the time and exertion they would give (double inequality of value), he must agree on the price of the land he buys with its owner (another double inequality of value), he must agree on the price of the capital with those that own it (another double inequality of value), and eventually he must agree on the price with the consumers that would buy his product (also, by a double inequality of value).
You see at every step, someone is giving up something (workers give up labor, landowner gives up land, capital owners lend capital, consumers give up money) that they value less than what they get (workers get wages, landowner gets rent or full payment for land, capital owners receive interest or full payment for capital, consumers get the product), and, in each transaction, the "captain of industry" also oppositely values what he is paying for what he is getting. So amazing.
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Why is a man working in a factory worth more than a mother taking care of her children?
"Worth"? Given the option of saving one or the other from certain death, I would save the mother. But I guess you aren't talking about that.
The mother taking care of her children has also made a judgement using her scaled preferences. She obviously values taking care of her children more than any other option, or else she'd be doing it.
I think most of those measures are far too drastic to ever be agreed to. As I see it we have a couple of very big, glaring flaws in our economic system as it now exists. One is that capitalism is inherently anti-social. The whole purpose of any business enterprise in a capitalist system is to maximize the monetary return to it's investors. And this places the goal of every business enterprise at enmity with everyone else involved in the enterprise: with the employees, with the suppliers, with the customers, and even with the community and environment in which it operates. ALL these other participants are viewed as hostile impediments to the goal of maximizing investor profits.
This needs to be changed. It makes no sense for people to continue participating in a commercial enterprise that seeks to exploit them at any opportunity. And this is the system we have, right now.
The second big problem we need to address is the fact that we currently assign the value of everything based on personal desire, rather than actual need, or social value. This creates an economy based on placating selfish desire alone, while completely ignoring human necessity and social responsibility. If someone wants it, we will produce it and sell it for as much as their desire will cause them to pay. This, too, is antithetical to humanity, itself, and to society as a whole. And the damage of this incessant focus on our selfish desires can be seen all around us. We treat everything (and often even each other) as if it were just another product, the sole purpose of which is to respond to our personal desires and expectations.
And the third big problem we really need to address is the increasingly uneven distribution of wealth. The more wealth accumulates in the hands of a few, the more powerful and able they become at gaining yet even more wealth, power and opportunity. And this limits everyone else's wealth, power, and opportunity. Eventually the imbalance becomes so pronounced that the exploited must revolt against the exploiters just to survive. Society collapses in a bloody revolution, and the whole pattern begins to repeat itself.
We need to set up an economic system that assures that money (and therefor power and opportunity) can't pile up higher and higher in the hands of fewer and fewer people. To keep an economy and society healthy, we need for everyone to have access to the opportunities, it;s security, and it's rewards.
I don't disagree in principle but you have not offered anything specific as a solution. Sometimes a car or house or tool is simply beyond repair and must be replaced. The replacement can be the same as what you had or it can be something entirely different that does a better job (or worse). What would you repair or change. Would you tax the wealthy more? They will only write new loopholes and it will be business as usual. It is time in my opinion to think outside the box. With specifics.
I do not know why , the USA, the Richest Country in the World only pays $6.00 / hr.
The reason why, is that big wealthy corporations pay lots of money to professional "lobbyists" (bag men) to bribe our legislators to do whatever they want. And of course, they want to keep the minimum wage low, because that helps to keep all other wages low as well. In fact, wages have been stagnated here in the U.S. for 30 years, thanks to this system of legalized bribery. While the huge profits being generated by the low wages have been going to the investors and CEOs of these same big corporations. Their salaries and bonuses have increased by huge percentage factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
You people are being Ripped off by Big Business which owns Wall Street and the Government.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
What the USA should have done was use those early Televisions to Teach people
all the many Skills that the country needed to be highly skilled people and your
country would have been smarter than all the other Countries and more Advanced
and Wealthy.
The wealthy and powerful do not want the general population to be 'smart'. Smart people will demand better treatment and a bigger share of the profits. Smart people will see what they've been doing and try to stop them. That's why they began moving all their companies to other countries, where they could more easily exploit their less uneducated populations, and where no one here will see or care.
And this is a capitalist culture. We didn't make TVs to teach anyone anything. We made them to generate profits for the investors of the TV manufacturing companies. We don't do anything in the United States for any reason except to profit the capitalists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
Instead, you guys just spent money on the Arms Race and War and Killing all your best and smartest young men.
What a waste.
That's how the wealthy corporate elite kept us all distracted, while they subverted and took control of our government. They use fear to stir us up against the world and against each other to keep us from realizing what they've been doing.
Now it's done. The corporations and big investment banks basically own the government. They have their corporate lawyers write up whatever legislation they want passed and their bought and paid for Senators and Congressmen in both parties pass it for them, unread. The people have no say in any of it, and they're too stupid and distracted by petty squabbling and the fear of "foreign terrorists" to notice, anyway.
I don't disagree in principle but you have not offered anything specific as a solution. Sometimes a car or house or tool is simply beyond repair and must be replaced. The replacement can be the same as what you had or it can be something entirely different that does a better job (or worse). What would you repair or change. Would you tax the wealthy more? They will only write new loopholes and it will be business as usual. It is time in my opinion to think outside the box. With specifics.
The first thing that has to happen, short of a bloody revolution, is that we have to stop the legalized bribery of the Congress and Senate. Until we do that, nothing else is possible, and would be rendered ineffective before it could even be implemented (health care reform, as a good example).
The only way we can achieve this (short of a bloody revolution) that I can see, is to create and support a new independent reform party, the platform of which would be to end this legalized bribery, and to end the idiotic partisan bickering of the two-party system. I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't happened yet, as it seems to me they would very likely do well in any election anywhere in the country.
Until this happens, no reforms of any kind will even be possible.
Slogan/motto:
Don't look back; something may be gaining on you.
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June 15th, 2012, 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
The Canadian Minimum Wage is $10.25 / hour.
I do not know why , the USA, the Richest Country in the World only pays $6.00 / hr.
You people are being Ripped off by Big Business which owns Wall Street and the Government.
As a Government Certified Machinist & Millwright, I made $68.18 / hr. when I was teaching at a Government supported school here in Toronto teaching Millwright Apprentices 7 years ago.
What the USA should have done was use those early Televisions to Teach people
all the many Skills that the country needed to be highly skilled people and your
country would have been smarter than all the other Countries and more Advanced
and Wealthy.
Instead, you guys just spent money on the Arms Race and War and Killing all your best and smartest young men.
What a waste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena
My husband works with a Millwright and I know for certain he doesn't make that much money. I think less than half of it, actually. He's been a Millwright for at least 20 years (more like 30 I think) and is a contractor for Proctor & Gamble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
I made $68.18 / hr. when I was teaching at a Government supported school .....
Mystery solved
Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
~Leonard Cohen
To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
~Ted Nugent
This is a lie we've been told over and over for so long, now, that we think it's true. But it's not. And it never was.
We need to learn the difference between commerce and exploitation. And when we do that, we will finally understand the difference between ambition and greed. Ambition promotes commerce, while greed promotes exploitation. When we finally wake up and realize that there is a grave and crucial difference between these two motives, and that one is healthy for society and it's economy, while the other is inherently destructive to both, we'll finally be able to implement the changes necessary to correct our steadily imploding national and world economy.
Essentially, greed is idolatry, and it is rampant. Do we need greed to have a functional economy? No--perhaps we can agree on this. However, greed, commercialism, and the materialistic nature of much of humanity is what causes our economy to move.
Essentially, greed is idolatry, and it is rampant. Do we need greed to have a functional economy? No--perhaps we can agree on this. However, greed, commercialism, and the materialistic nature of much of humanity is what causes our economy to move.
Yes, I misunderstood you before. And I agree with you. We have allowed greed to become our prime commercial motive, and it's destroying us. As greed will always do.
Slogan/motto:
In a world with so many ready to hear, why waste words on the willfully deaf?
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June 16th, 2012, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeset
Our economy is in a state of chaos. I do not see one single person who has a solution. I listen to all sides on the economic debates. I don't have a solution either but I keep wondering about a few things. Why is one person's effort and product worth more than another? Why is a person's labor spent fixing a toilet or tilling a field worth less than a legislator or a captain of industry? Why is a man working in a factory worth more than a mother taking care of her children?
The reason labor spent fixing a toilet is paid less than that of a major CEO is that there are a lot more people who can fix toilets than those who can run fortune 500 companies.
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I think we need to legislate a maximum wage.
High wages are (largely) the result of a shortage of particular type of labor. Cap wages and those competing to hire the sort of people who can provide that labor will just find ways of getting around that cap through various non-wage benefits or the labor will just leave and go to a different nation, and those on the upper end of the wage scale are those who can most easily emigrate.
"When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."
The first thing that has to happen, short of a bloody revolution, is that we have to stop the legalized bribery of the Congress and Senate.
I agree. I think in earlier decades lobbyists actually worked hard to convince elected officials that a particular piece of legislation should be passed, defeated or modified. Now I think they just say "I want this, how much will your vote cost me?".
Mystery solved
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