[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Hobie

So going back to what Paul said in scripture, how about that certain 'law of ordinances' that was nailed to the cross, what was it and does it give license for any day to be used as Gods day of worship. This law of ordinances that Paul was speaking on was the ceremonial law of types and shadows that pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. This is why Paul said it was contrary to the Christian. The rent veil in the temple at the death of Christ (Matthew 27:51) indicated the end of that ordinance of animal sacrifices, and Ephesians 2:15 say s that Jesus "abolished...the law of commandments contained in ordinances."
This is why Paul wrote in Colossians 2:16,17 that we are no longer judged by the meat offerings, drink offerings, and sabbath days "which are a shadow of things to come." Take note that these are yearly and not the weekly Sabbath of the moral law. These shadowy sabbaths are described in Leviticus 23:24-37. They fell on certain set days of the month - a different day of the week each year, yet they were called sabbaths. But observe in Leviticus 23:37-38 how they were distinguished from the weekly Sabbath: "These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, every thing upon his day, beside the sabbaths of the Lord."

Paul never gives license for Sunday or any of the weekdays as the day of worship, it is not in scripture.

Truth is Paul admonished Peter for not having the testosterone to stand up to the Jews who claimed they had come from James when they tried to bring the church back under bondage to the law. More truth is that James did not send them and those individuals who claimed they were from James were lying about having any authority whatsoever from the church in Jerusalem.

Peter made it clear that the dietary laws were history as far as a carnal observance and Paul also made it clear that it was okay by him as to whether you worship on any particular day or not!

You are continually speaking against the truth of the Scriptures by trying to tell people the Bible says words that it does not say. Below is just one more example and proof.

Colossians 2:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:



Doug

[heir]

John 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[2COR12:9]

Romans 14:5-6 (ESV)
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV)
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

[seekinganswers]

Originally Posted by Hobie

Many people say worshiping on Sunday is in the Bible, but yet there is nothing in scripture sanctioning it. Neither is there anywhere in the Bible making it holy or a day of worship or rest. So where does it come from, what are its origins.

Sun-worship was the dominant religion in all ancient civilizations, thousands of years before the birth of Christ, spreading from its origin in Babylon to India, China, Africa, Greece, Rome, and many distant lands. Sun worship was a very prominent religion and had a special day in which they came to do the ceremonies or have festival or other worship to the gods they held. It evolved and was observed in many ways in the different countries but Sunday was the main day of worship in the pagan Roman Empire by the time of Jesus Christ, just as it was in ancient pagan Babylon.

So lets look a little deeper, if worshipping on Sunday goes back long before Jesus Christ, as in fact the record shows, all the way back to Babylon and its system of worship, how did it turn into a day of worship, and were does this system of worship derived from, it is not in scripture.

I'm not necessarily in agreement with this description of Sunday worship's origins. In the scriptures it appears Sunday worship became necessary only because the growing Christian community was less and less welcome within the synagogue. There are good indications that the earliest Christians were all participants in local synagogues (including the Gentiles, most of whom that are mentioned in the New Testament appear to be "God-fearers"). Christians, it seems, would hold a separate gathering at the house of one of their wealthier members after the Sabbath services to continue their own instruction. The way in which the Jews understood days meant that the day ended at sundown . Thus the earliest Christians probably met in the evenings after the Sabbath services in their local synagogue, on their Sunday, which technically for us would be Saturday, since we track days differently than the Jews. But given that Christian gatherings would have been held in the evenings, I find it highly suspect that they would be worshiping the sun after it had set. Just a couple thoughts.

Peace,
Michael

[MaryContrary]

Originally Posted by Hobie

So if [anything you like] comes from another [system/culture/whatever], and it is not from God, why are christians continuing with it, that is the question.

If there is a God and we are created of Him, in His image, including our very natures...it shouldn't surprise us to find ourselves showing signs of that long before God commands this, that or the other.

The thing is: it is from God. Because we are from God.

There are plenty of basic, fundamental Christian principles reflected in other cultures, even long before Christ. Even long before Abraham. You see atheists drag something up from some old culture all the time and point to it saying, "See! That was around long before it was in the bible!"

And...yeah, so? Of course it was.

We see Christ-like figures in just about every culture. Certainly in most religions. We see the relationship between God and man reflected in the relationship between men and women. We see systems of laws that come pretty close to the Mosaic law long before it was given to us. We see lots of stuff like this because we human beings, children of God.

That stuff is hardwired into us precisely so we will recognize it when we see it.

[Hobie]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Truth is Paul admonished Peter for not having the testosterone to stand up to the Jews who claimed they had come from James when they tried to bring the church back under bondage to the law. More truth is that James did not send them and those individuals who claimed they were from James were lying about having any authority whatsoever from the church in Jerusalem.

Peter made it clear that the dietary laws were history as far as a carnal observance and Paul also made it clear that it was okay by him as to whether you worship on any particular day or not!

You are continually speaking against the truth of the Scriptures by trying to tell people the Bible says words that it does not say. Below is just one more example and proof.

Colossians 2:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:



Doug

The Jews had high sabbath days, and these seven Jewish sabbath days were the handwritings of ordinances, a shadow to come, and rudiments of the world; after the commandments and doctrines of men (Colossians 2:8-22) and not the Ten Commandments of God (1.Cor.7:19).They have nothing to do with the Creators weekly seventh-day Sabbath which He made holy, not any other day.

See Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances for to make in himself the twain one new man [so] making peace.

Note that these passages refer to the law containing "ordinances," Moses' law, which was a ceremonial law governing the sacrificial system and the priesthood. All of this ceremony and ritual foreshadowed the cross and ended at Christ's death, as God had intended.

Moses' law was added till the "seed should come," and that "seed ... is Christ." Galatians 3:19.16

God's law could not be involved here, for Paul spoke of it as holy, just, and good many years after the cross (Romans 7:7.12)


If the Sabbath was abolished, Paul would had said so and plainly, there would be many verses and much text to show it, yet there is none. The apostles would have had many discussions and the councils at Jerusalem would have written at least one with a determination of it being abolished and yet there is nothing. Paul exhorts in Corinthians that Circumcision is nothing in comparison to the Ten Commandments.“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the Commandments of God.” 1 Corinthians 7:19. Since there are more than forty verses and up to ten verses at a time clearly stating that Circumcision of the flesh is a yoke of bondage and abolished, how many scriptures would you expect stating the Sabbath was abolished or changed to Sunday? Perhaps seventy or more?The fact is there is not even one verse that says,“The Sabbath is abolished or is now Sunday.”

The Ten Commandments are the only thing that God personally spoke and then personally etched His Law into stone tablets with His own finger. Yet there is not one clear scripture or commandment from Christ or even a direction from a apostle to abolish the Sabbath anywhere in scripture, just a couple of erroneous assumptions. One of God's Commandments supposedly changes or is abolished and we do not have even one clear verse. Why not? The answer is simple. It was never abolished or changed to Sunday by the authority of God so no such scripture exists.


Here is a good explanation...
http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_1.../colintro.html

[Hobie]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

Romans 14:5-6 (ESV)
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV)
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Again the Jews had high sabbath days that were not part of the weekly seventh day Sabbath. When the Gentiles came into the church, the Jewish Christians felt the Gentiles should observe all the mosaic ceremonial times and laws and festivals that were done away at the cross. You also can look at Galatians 4: 10, 11, as well Colossians 2:16 on this issue that Paul kept repeating. It reads, “You observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.”

Does Paul mean to reprove those Galatians for observing the Sabbath? Let us see. This letter was written not later than 58 AD., or six years after the Jerusalem council. Right after this council we find Paul making his second missionary tour, delivering in every place the decrees which set the Gentiles free from ceremonial bondage, and at the same time setting an example of Sabbath observance. It was on this trip that he passed through Galatia and raised up the churches to whom he is writing in this text.

Among other things he reproved them for departing from the teaching he had brought them at the time of his first visit, and adds, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Gal. 1:8. Thus it is evident that Paul had not changed his doctrine or his practices.

James and the church at Jerusalem never gave up Sabbath keeping so long as Jerusalem stood. When Paul was there at least two years after he wrote the epistle to the Galatians, he proceeded to show that he was in accord with his brethren in Jerusalem, as is recorded in Acts 21:20-24. Even after that, when he was at Rome, he said, “I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers.” Acts 28:17.

Therefore, Paul was not condemning the Galatians for doing the same as did he. About what, then, was he warning the Galatians? It was not that it was wrong to observe the Sabbath, for he was doing that himself. It was not that it was wrong to perform the act of circumcision, for after the Jerusalem council he had Timothy circumcised. Acts 16:1 What was it then? In this same letter he said, “In Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision.- Gal. 5:6. It made no difference whether a man went through the form as such, or not. But it did make a
difference if a man did that for salvation.

What had they been taught? “Certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1. That was the contention-whether it was necessary for salvation. Paul wrote and warned them about keeping days and months and times and years, and being circumcised as a means of salvation. He told them that if they could be saved by that means, they did not need Christ or a savior. “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.... Christ is become
of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.” Gal. 5:2-4. “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.” Gal. 2:16.

The reference in Colossians reads: ---Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.--- Col. 2:16. What does he mean? How can a man keep another from judging him? Does Paul mean that they were to keep all those feasts so well that no one would be able to judge them, or to find fault with the way they did it? If he meant judging in the ordinary sense, we would have to draw this conclusion.

In his letter to the Colossians Paul is not warning them simply about the danger of depending upon ritual for salvation, as in the Galatian letter, but against a strange set of doctrines that tended to overthrow the teaching of the gospel. This sixteenth verse is the conclusion of an argument which Paul had used to show that Jesus had paid the price of man's salvation, and had completely obliterated every trace of the document of debt, and had set him free. Then he adds, “And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words: . . . beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Col. 2:4-8.

Clearly this was a warning against a philosophy that tended to lead away from Christ. Those who were doing that in the first century were Gnostics who held to the ritual of the Jews, but denied the divinity of Christ, and claimed to be Christians. This seems to be the people to whom Paul refers here. He says, “Let no man judge [krineto] you.” This word is translated in 1 Corinthians 7:37 as “decree.” If we should translate it that way here, it would read, Let no man make decrees for you to follow concerning meat and drink, etc.

It was a warning to the Colossians about false teachers who were making decrees for men to follow which were leading them away from Christ. He says, “Let no man beguile you of your reward. . . . Why as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances . . . after the commandments and doctrines of men?” Col. 2:18-22. This was a warning against men who were denying the merits of Christ in the salvation of man. These men were relying upon ritual rather than upon Christ.

[Hobie]

Originally Posted by MaryContrary

If there is a God and we are created of Him, in His image, including our very natures...it shouldn't surprise us to find ourselves showing signs of that long before God commands this, that or the other.

The thing is: it is from God. Because we are from God.

There are plenty of basic, fundamental Christian principles reflected in other cultures, even long before Christ. Even long before Abraham. You see atheists drag something up from some old culture all the time and point to it saying, "See! That was around long before it was in the bible!"

And...yeah, so? Of course it was.

We see Christ-like figures in just about every culture. Certainly in most religions. We see the relationship between God and man reflected in the relationship between men and women. We see systems of laws that come pretty close to the Mosaic law long before it was given to us. We see lots of stuff like this because we human beings, children of God.

That stuff is hardwired into us precisely so we will recognize it when we see it.

What do you mean by 'if', I dont understand....?

[Hobie]

Here is a explanation that should help:


'...Jesus did not come to do away with the writings of the Old Testament, He came to fulfill them. The first five books of the Bible, the Torah, were written by Moses and were a testimony to the plan of salvation. The prophetic books were written to remind God’s people of these truths and to unfold to them more fully their duty toward God. The Psalms form a miniature Bible by themselves, they contain a record of the history of God’s people. They are prophetic and contain songs of praise to God. The New Testament is the fulfilment in verity of all that the Old Testament embodies. Jesus said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17,18

The Ceremonial Law

This law of types and ceremonies was written by Moses in a book, the book of the law, and had to be placed beside the ark.

Contrast of Moral and Ceremonial Laws (I will seperate with a slash /)


Moral Law ----------------/------------------Ceremonial Law

Called Royal Law of Liberty --/--Called Law...contained in ordinances
James 2:8,12----------------/-------------Eph 2:15; Heb 9:10

Spoken by God Himself -----/----Given to Moses to speak to the people
Deut 4:12; 5:22 -----------/------------Lev 1:1-3; Exod 24:3


Written by God's finger on stone ----/-----Written by Moses in "book of the law"
Exodus 31:18; 32:16 -------/-----------Deut 31:9,24


Placed in the Ark --- ------------/----------Placed beside the Ark
1 Kings 8:9, Deut 10:1-5; ------/--------Deut 31:24-26
Heb 9:4;Exod 40:20


Existed before sin -----------/-------------Given after man sinned
1 John 3:4,8; Rom 4:15; 5:13 ----/------Hebrews 5:1; 8:4

Purpose was to reveal sin. -----/-----Purpose was to reveal the sin
Romans 3:20; 7:7 ------------/---------Gal 3:19, Lev 6:1,6,7; John1:29

Eternal---------------------/-------------------Abolished at cross,
Ps 111:7,8; Matt 5:18; Rom 3:31----/----Col 2:14-17

Not grievous --------------/------------------Contrary to us
1 John 5:3 ---------------/---------------Col 2:14-17


Judges all men ------------/------------------Judges no man
James 2:10-12 -----------/--------------Col 2:14-17

Spiritual --------------------/------------------Carnal
Romans 7:14 -------------/-------------Hebrews 9:10

Complete, "Perfect, ----------/---------------Subject to Change,
Holy, Just and Good"----------/-------------"made nothing perfect"
Deut 5:22, Psalm 19:7,-------/--------Hebrews 7:12,18,19
Rom 7:12



And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. Deuteronomy 31:24-26.
These two sets of laws, the one moral and the other ceremonial, were thus entirely different and served different purposes.
Christ came to fulfill the obligations of the ceremonial law by becoming the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. He fulfilled the obligation of the law of Ten Commandments by His perfect obedience to its precepts. After the cross, the law of ceremonies was discontinued because it foreshadowed the cross, but the law of Ten Commandments did not change, nor was it done away with when Christ died. The same law is still to be found in the New Testament......."

[steko]

OP: Sunday Worship, is it from God.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ occured on the first day of the week.
The resurrection was from GOD and of GOD.
The word 'worship' comes from Anglo-Saxxon 'worthship'.
Worship is giving honor to that which has ultimate worth.
To celebrate the resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week is indeed worship.
One who rejoices of his salvation by the work of Christ on the cross and His triumph over death by the resurrection has liberty through the Holy Spirit to celebrate that event on any and every day, Sunday not excluded.
Today we give the name Sunday to the first day of the week, by cultural tradition.
Quibbling over worshipping on Sunday is evidence of one being caught in a legalistic quaqmire.

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by steko

The resurrection of Jesus Christ occured on the first day of the week.
The resurrection was from GOD and of GOD.
The word 'worship' comes from Anglo-Saxxon 'worthship'.
Worship is giving honor to that which has ultimate worth.
To celebrate the resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week is indeed worship.
One who rejoices of his salvation by the work of Christ on the cross and His triumph over death by the resurrection has liberty through the Holy Spirit to celebrate that event on any and every day, Sunday not excluded.
Today we give the name Sunday to the first day of the week, by cultural tradition.
Quibbling over worshipping on Sunday is evidence of one being caught in a legalistic quaqmire.

That's a good reason to celebrate Sunday.

BUT GOD says to keep HIS Sabbath. That his law, written by his finger, to keep holy his day.
Sunday was always the day of the sun god. Most pagans love Sunday. The problem is the tradition started by force of the Roman Emperor.
Most early Christians worshipped on the Sabbath.

[steko]

Originally Posted by keypurr

That's a good reason to celebrate Sunday.

BUT GOD says to keep HIS Sabbath. That his law, written by his finger, to keep holy his day.
Sunday was lays the day of the sun god. Most pagans love Sunday. The problem is the tradition started by force of the Roman Emperor.
Most early Christians worshipped on the Sabbath.

The law, containing the seventh day sabbath, is a unit and given only to the nation of Israel as a rule of life in the land.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


Contrast with:



Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

to the OP:

what? you only worship God on one day of the week?

If you worship Him all 7 which day you choose to go to meet other brethren matters not in the least.

as for keeping the sabbath holy, the sabbath rest of the believer mentioned in the letter to the Hebrews is a spiritual state itself covering all seven days of the week. so a legalistic appeal to the 4th commandment resolves nothing and shows only an old covenant understanding of things

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by keypurr

Show me in scripture.

Post #7 is merely a link to a list of Scriptures, exactly what you're asking for.

I want to see YOUR words not your church.

Again, Post #7 is a list of Bible verses. Your "argument" has already been both answered and refuted. End of thread.



Gaudium de veritate,

Crucifiorm
+T+

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Post #7 is merely a link to a list of Scriptures, exactly what you're asking for.


Again, Post #7 is a list of Bible verses. Your "argument" has already been both answered and refuted. End of thread.



Gaudium de veritate,

Crucifiorm
+T+

It looks like you don't even have a clue what is in the page that opens when clicking the link.