What doctrine allows for the 'veneration of Saints'...?
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What doctrine allows for the 'veneration of Saints'...? -
June 18th, 2012, 03:51 AM
....and does Catholic Church know 'veneration of Saints' was transfered from idol worship?
If you look in history you find that official saint making, or canonization by the Vatican, did not start until the 11th century, but right after the last apostle died, as early as the 2nd century, the veneration of saints began by the pagan converts and came into the church. Basically what Gentile converts in many places were going back to or doing the same thing they had done for centuries before.
The Roman god Mars was originally a god who guarded wheat fields. He became St. Martin (esp. St. Martin-in-the-fields). Although March is the month associated with Mars (it was the beginning of the military campaigning season in Roman times), the major festival for him in Christian times now usually falls in February, called Mardi Gras "Great Mars."
The Roman god Quirinus became St. Cyrinus, of which there are various "equestrian warrior saints" such as St. Cyr in France, and St. Quirina, mother of St. Lawrence. The element quir- means (or was understood to mean) `horse.' These saints were very popular and widely worshiped in the Middle-Ages, in France, Holland and also eastern Christian countries.
The Roman gods known as the Lares became St. Lawrence, esp. St. Lawrence beyond-the-wall. The Lares were field gods who protected the grain growing in the fields. In Italian, he became St. Lorenzo beyond the Walls, meaning outside of the walls of the city, for which there is still a church in Rome, with many "daughter" churches which developed from it.
The Roman goddess Venus became St. Venera (with a feminized ending to her name since -us looks like a
masculine ending in Latin). She had a major church in Rome in early Christian times, but that didn't last long.
The Roman gods known as the Gemini, who were protectors of sailors in Roman pagan times, became the Sanctos Geminos, with a number of forms in the various Christian religions. Santiago de Compostela, (St. James in English) became the protector of pilgrims during the Middle Ages. Forms of St. James all seem to be christianized from various forms of the Proto-Indo-European god *Yama. This god was repeatedly christianized in most of the Indo-European language groups.
The ancient Romans worshiped gods and goddesses involved with every aspect of life. Jupiter, the chief of the gods, was the god of rain and storms, while his wife, Juno, was the goddess of womanhood. Minerva was the goddess of handicrafts and wisdom; Venus, of sexual love and birth; Vesta, of the hearth and sacred fires; Ceres, of farming and harvests.
The Greeks considered Mercury, whom they called Hermes, to be the messenger of the gods, but the Romans worshiped him as the god of trade, with businesspeople celebrating his feast day to increase profits. And there were other popular deities: Mars, god of war; Castor and Pollux, gods of sea travelers; Cronos, the guardian of time; and of course Cupid, god of love, whose magic arrows caused both human beings and immortals to fall in love.
While the Romans would call generically on "the gods," each major deity still had its own cult, and worshippers would pray and conduct religious ceremonies to a specific god or goddess to implore help.
Now lets look at St. Valentine and origins of Valentine's Day:
"The most plausible theory for St. Valentine's Day traces its customs back to the Roman Lupercalia, a feast celebrated in February in honor of the pastoral god Lupercus, a Roman version of the Greek god Pan. The festival was an important one for the Romans and, occurring when it did, naturally had some aspects of a rebirth rite to it" (St. Valentine, Cupid and Jesus Christ by Gary Petty pp. 50-51).
Demeter is a goddess of many festivals but most important, the Thesmophoria, which fell in late October. She became St. Demetrios, a masculine warrior saint, whose fd. is 10/26.
Aphrodite became St. Aphrodite, of which there are several, all with saints' tales that tell how she became a "repentant wh*re."
Nike was picked up as Saint Nicholas, who was extremely popular wherever shipping was important. He is the patron saint of Russian, Holland and Germany, all on the north sea coast.
Pagan gods were made Christian saints.
Bacchus became St. Bacchus, and Dionysius
became St. Denys or Denis."
-(Charles G. Berger, Our Phallic Heritage
[NY, NY: Greenwich Book Publishers, Inc., 1966],
p. 154-155).
"The Virgin [Mary] was given the title
Queen of Heaven and is depicted wearing
a blue robe decorated with stars and
standing on a crescent Moon. This image
is almost identical to pagan representations
of the goddess of love Ishtar who was
worshipped by the Babylonians."
-(Michael Howard, The Occult Conspiracy:
The Power of Secret Societies in World History
Ancient statues of mother and child formerly known as the Pagan gods Isis and Horus became Mary and baby Jesus and the old forms of worship came into the church.
So is the Catholic Church aware that its 'veneration of Saints' was transfered from idol worship, and what doctrine allows for it?
Many of my relatives are devout Catholics. Those whose business is farming pray to their patron saint called Saint Isidore the Laborer. They hold an annual feast for this saint every 15th of May.
Yes, it is idolatry.
When the elements of darkness could not stop the spread of Christianity in the early centuries after the resurrection of Christ, they simply devised a fake christianity.
There is a saying, "if you cannot kill all of them, steal their name and identity".
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [Matt. 16:19].
"What are the keys of the kingdom of heaven? Were they given only to Simon Peter? No, Jesus gives them to those who make the same confession made by Peter, those who know Christ as Savior. If you are a child of God, you have the keys as well as any person has the keys. The keys were the badge of authority of the office of the scribes who interpreted the Scriptures to the people (see Neh. 8:2–8). Every Christian today has the Scriptures and, therefore, the keys. If we withhold the Word, we “bind on earth”; if we give the Word, we “loose on earth.” No man or individual church has the keys—to the exclusion of all other believers. We have a responsibility today to give out the gospel because it is the only thing that can save people. This is a tremendous revelation. Who is sufficient for these things? You and I have a responsibility that is awesome indeed!" McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:92-93
[Marks of an Effective Personal Ministry, Part 1 Grace to You] "...All Christians are saints. There are no special ones. All of us are saints. I am not less than any other man. I am not less than Peter. I am not less than Paul in the eyes of God. I am equal, because I am in Christ. And so when I pray, I do not need to pray to them. That would be redundant. They're no different than men..." Full text: Marks of an Effective Personal Ministry, Part 1 Col 1:21
Many of my relatives are devout Catholics. Those whose business is farming pray to their patron saint called Saint Isidore the Laborer. They hold an annual feast for this saint every 15th of May.
Yes, it is idolatry.
When the elements of darkness could not stop the spread of Christianity in the early centuries after the resurrection of Christ, they simply devised a fake christianity.
There is a saying, "if you cannot kill all of them, steal their name and identity".
Ga 5:9 Do they have a picture of the Pope on their wall? Eze 14:3,4
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [Matt. 16:19].
"What are the keys of the kingdom of heaven? Were they given only to Simon Peter? No, Jesus gives them to those who make the same confession made by Peter, those who know Christ as Savior. If you are a child of God, you have the keys as well as any person has the keys. The keys were the badge of authority of the office of the scribes who interpreted the Scriptures to the people (see Neh. 8:2–8). Every Christian today has the Scriptures and, therefore, the keys. If we withhold the Word, we “bind on earth”; if we give the Word, we “loose on earth.” No man or individual church has the keys—to the exclusion of all other believers. We have a responsibility today to give out the gospel because it is the only thing that can save people. This is a tremendous revelation. Who is sufficient for these things? You and I have a responsibility that is awesome indeed!" McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:92-93
[Marks of an Effective Personal Ministry, Part 1 Grace to You] "...All Christians are saints. There are no special ones. All of us are saints. I am not less than any other man. I am not less than Peter. I am not less than Paul in the eyes of God. I am equal, because I am in Christ. And so when I pray, I do not need to pray to them. That would be redundant. They're no different than men..." Full text: Marks of an Effective Personal Ministry, Part 1 Col 1:21
Good point, and what is worse is the church was warned against the pagan worship of these 'saints' time after time by the leaders and theologians. I came across of what Augustine of Hippo who was a Bishop of the Roman Church in North Africa said....Augustine was a prolific writer and also a theologian. One of the books he wrote was The City of God. What follows is a passage from it.The passage can be found in Book IV, page 144.
Next let us ask, if they please, out of so great a crowd of gods which the Romans worship, whom in especial, or what gods they believe to have extended and preserved that empire. Now, surely of this work, which is so excellent and so very full of the highest dignity, they dare not ascribe any part to the goddess Cloacina, or to Volupia, who has her appellation from voluptuousness; or to Libentia, who has her name from lust; or to Vaticanus who presides over the screaming of infants; or to Cunina, who rules over their cradles. But how is it possible to recount in one part of this book all the names of gods or goddesses, which they could scarcely comprise in great volumes, distributing among these divinities their peculiar offices about single things?
Pagan Rome had thousands of gods.There were gods for every little thing.They had one god for planting seed, one for germinating it, one for sprouting it, another for growing it and so on. Thousands of gods existed to grant them “benefits.”
Then we have Polycarp on of Johns disciples, who wrote in the mid-second century:
I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. "Abstain from every form of evil." For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others ? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord? (Polycarp. Letter to the Philippians, Chapter XI. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1as edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885).
Then we have Theophilus of Antioch who is in the Orthodox list of successors from the apostles. Here is a little bit of what he wrote about idols:
We also have Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, and Tertullian who clearly wrote against idols.
Notice that Irenaeus says when converted, they would no longer have or worship idols:
'And that these promises the calling from among the Gentiles should inherit, to whom also the new testament was opened up, Isaiah says thus:
These things saith the God of Israel: In that day a man shall trust in his Maker, and his eyes shall look to the Holy One of Israel: and they shall not trust in altars, nor in the work of their own hands, which their fingers have made. For very plainly this was said of such as have forsaken idols and believed in God our Maker through the Holy One of Israel. And the Holy One of Israel is Christ: and He became visible to men, and to Him we look eagerly and behold Him; and we trust not in altars, nor in the works of our hands. '
(Irenaeus, St., Bishop of Lyon. Translated from the Armenian by Armitage Robinson. The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, Chapter 91. Wells, Somerset, Oct. 1879. As published in SOCIETY FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE. NEW YORK: THE MACMILLAN CO, 1920).
So were did the doctrine come from that allowed graven images and of wood and stone, and other materials to be shaped and made by men and brought into the church. How could they go against their own theologians and learned men, and ignore their warnings totally. How did that happen.
"A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away...."
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
Reputation:
June 18th, 2012, 12:01 PM
None.. the Catholic just invented a concept, and a word for it, to allow them to skirt the real issue and not own up to what they are really doing.
God tells us to refrain from the appearance of evil, and to keep others from stumbling.
We know that there are catholics that are weak and DO worship the statues and saints.. its pervasive in the RCC.... yet the church continually puts statues and idols in front of them.. like waving a crack rock in front of an addict.
None.. the Catholic just invented a concept, and a word for it, to allow them to skirt the real issue and not own up to what they are really doing...
Their doctrines are false (Ga 1:6-8). They are: destructive to faith (2 Ti 2:18), hateful to God (Re 2:14,15), unprofitable and vain (Tit 3:9; Heb 13:9). They will be punished (Mic 3:6,7; 2 Pe 2:1,3).
"You nullify the Word of God by your traditions that you have handed down (Mk 7:13)."
Respective members of the boc, the church, which is his body, in this dispensation, are living saints.
Therefore, this fact makes this thread moot.
Therefore, this thread has been officially closed by....
Saint Jack.
You can now "venerate" me for my actions today. You are welcome.
I dont know about 'living saints', looks like same old ancient graven images...take a look:
Checking St. Valentine and origins of Valentine's Day:
"The most plausible theory for St. Valentine's Day traces its customs back to the Roman Lupercalia, a feast celebrated in February in honor of the pastoral god Lupercus, a Roman version of the Greek god Pan. The festival was an important one for the Romans and, occurring when it did, naturally had some aspects of a rebirth rite to it" (St. Valentine, Cupid and Jesus Christ by Gary Petty pp. 50-51).
'Saint Brigid' was named after one of the
most powerful goddesses of the Pagan religion..
"Probably the clearest example
of the survival of an early goddess
into Christian times is Brigid,
the great triple goddess of the
Celtic Irish. Bridget took religious vows,
...and was canonized after her death
by her adoptive church, which allowed
the saint a curious list of attributes,
coincidentally identical to those of
the earlier goddess."
-Exerpt from Goddess & Heroines
by Patricia Monaghan
Pagan gods were made Christian saints.
Bacchus became St. Bacchus, and Dionysius
became St. Denys or Denis."
-(Charles G. Berger, Our Phallic Heritage
[NY, NY: Greenwich Book Publishers, Inc., 1966],
p. 154-155).
Then we have SEMIRAMIS -
"Queen of Heaven"
"Mother of god"
"Semiramis became known
as the "queen of heaven,"
and was the prototype
from which all other pagan
goddesses came."
--World Religions
by David Terrell
"Nimrod and his mother (Semiramis)
became the chief entities of worship
as a Madonna and child. This belief and
practice spread to Egypt, where the
names of the gods were Isis and Osiris.
....In Rome they were called Fortuna and
Jupiter."
--The Bible as History
by Werner Keller
"The Virgin [Mary] was given the title
Queen of Heaven and is depicted wearing
a blue robe decorated with stars and
standing on a crescent Moon. This image
is almost identical to pagan representations
of the goddess of love Ishtar who was
worshipped by the Babylonians."
-(Michael Howard, The Occult Conspiracy:
"I dont know about 'living saints', looks like same old ancient graven images...take a look:"-Hobie
Acts 9:13 KJV
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:32 KJV
And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Well lets look and see what 'saints' we are talking about. If you look, history shows how the 'Veneration of the Saints' evolved in the early church and were it came from, including the ceremonies and many festivals, along with the day of worship. For example, bringing in the pagan festival of Easter as a substitute for the Pasch or Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival like it. Some modern scholars believe that the church in the early stages picked up pagan oral teachings including such reincarnation and the pre-existence of soul and other esoteric influences. History shows that the early church especially in Rome, was influenced by pagan rituals and beliefs from the Roman imperial cult, Hellenistic philosophy, along with Gnosticism. But there was one festival that seemed especially resilient, the pagan festivals of the dead seem to have been among those that showed persistence in survival. There are indications that they were celebrated even under Christian emperors as the pagans were being allowed pretty much without any change into the church. But even after the pagan festivals ceased to be celebrated outright, the belief that the spirits of the dead could and, if properly approached, would give aid and protection to the living survived. The leaders of the Church compromised, shifting from the cult of the spirits of ancestors to the veneration of persons whose virtues, sufferings, or miraculous deeds justified their being regarded as intermediaries between God and man. In other words the church succeeded to the worship of the dead just as they succeeded to the cult of the departmental deities and to the "little gods" of the Roman household. While the Church claims it never gave the 'Saints' to the people to worship or pray to, the masses they made no such fine distinctions, and they came to regard the idols of the Saints themselves as present helps in trouble and addressed their prayers directly to them. They were more interested in the power of the dead of pagan beliefs now set up as 'Saints' in the church, to help them in their troubles as they had done before as pagans. A good example of the closeness of the resemblance of the specialization of function of different Saints to that of pagan spirits is found in the published lists of Saints used by some Christians.
Here are some of the examples: San Serapio was used to appealed to in case of stomach-ache; Santa Polonia for tooth-ache; San Jose, San Juan Bautista and Santa Catalina for headache; San Bernardo and San Cirilo for indigestion; San Luis for cholera; San Francisco for colic; San Ignacio and Santa Lutgarda for childbirth; Santa Balsania for scrofula; San Felix for ulcers; Santa Agueda for nursing mothers; San Babilas for burns; San Gorge for an infected cut; Santa Quiteria for dog's bite; San Ciriaco for diseases of the ear; Santa Lucia for the eyes; San Pedro for fever; and Santa Rita for the impossible and on and on.Some of the early Christians themselves protested against the cult of the Saints: for example, Vigilantius and Faustus in the fifth century. But on the other side were such great apologists as Augustine, Jerome, Ambrose, Chrysostom, and Basil, who though claiming that God alone was worshipped, expressed full belief in the efficacy of the intercession of the Saints.
Going back to the festivals, there are some specific festivals that go back directly to pagan customs connected with the dead. All Saints' Day, was observed on the the Roman festival of the dead, the Lemuria. In the modern festival the faithful visit the tombs of the Saints, venerate their relics, and pray for their blessing. The next day also, the second of November, All Souls' Day, unquestionably reproduces some of the features of the Parentalia. The Parentalia or dies parentales ("ancestral days") was a nine-day festival held to honor the dead ancestors with visits to tombs and sacred offerings. It got into the church, and Christians went to the cemeteries and decked the graves of the members of their family with flowers and candles, and there were ceremonies which took the place of the ancient sacrifice, directed to the repose of the souls of the departed.
When I get home I will check my notes for all the 'saints' and their origins, and it seems every pagan god or gods from every people of the earth was made a 'saint' as the church joined themselves to the pagan influences and matched the idols of the pagans with renamed Saints. The sanctity of relics, which was well-established among the pagans, also came in and was given a greater emphasis in the church than before. The idea also showed itself in the division of the remains of a Saint and in the importanced attached even to the smallest relic. Worse, as far back as history shows, the worship of all pagan deities originated with the worship of dead men and dead women. Idol worship denigrates the idea of worshipping God to the level of worshipping stone or wood images of the dead. The apostles were scarcely dead before the early Christians began to make graven images of them contrary to scripture. The Bible speaks very plainly concerning the worship of the dead and the familiar spirits of the dead to say nothing of the many verses against idols.
"...All Christians are saints. There are no special ones. 
All of us are saints. I am not less than any other man. I am not less than Peter. I am not less than Paul in the eyes of God. I am equal, because I am in Christ. And so when I pray, I do not need to pray to them. That would be redundant. They're no different than men..." Full text: 
Col 1:21
What's new? 
~ J Vernon McGee Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13.
Eze 14:3,4
When you believe men 
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