Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked...
ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
June 28th, 2012, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by `Love.
Looking at what is written is very important so that one does not superimpose their own beliefs onto the page. As I've said, that hell fire refers to the fires of Gehenna, an actual valley with fire where criminals bodies were burned. Jesus warned people that if you sin, you will be killed and your body will be thrown into that pit. This is no squabble.
Speaking of words consider "forever."
That means something without end.
In one instance, regarding the burning in the Lake of Fire, it was said that the beast, false prophet, and devil would burn forever in the Lake of fire. That means the fire lasts eternally; their individual awareness lasts forever, and their suffering lasts forever.
Now whether the burning in a place we will call "hell" lasts forever for human beings is certainly debatable. But I have a question for you. If "hell" is not a literal place that last until the time of the Lake of Fire, then why would scripture talk about casting IT into the Lake of Fire?
Death is an established process that is on-going and it will one day be cast into the Lake of Fire which will end that process.
I conclude that "hell" must be an on-going place so that it also will one day be cast into the Lake of Fire which will do away with that realm.
Now, an interesting question might be: What is the Lake of Fire. I have some thoughts on this, but that is a different topic.
Back to my previous post when I mentioned James 3:6 KJV, where
the "fire of hell/ hell fire" is used to discuss the end results of any people having evil tongues while in this world ... it is said that people with fiery tongues are reeking havock whenever they are on earth... and scripture compares how they are tormenting others with what is experienced in "the fire of hell."
quote: My words inside of (...)
And the tongue is (like) a fire, (it is) a world of (full of) iniquity (inappropriate trouble or evil): so is the tongue among our (individual bodily) members, that it (the tongue) defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature (its direction within this realm); and it is set on (a course for the) fire of hell.
IOW, the torment and havoc that can be produced on earth through the use of a wicked tongue is compared to or like [i]"fire"[/b].
Then the analogy is completed when it says that those causing that FIRE (torment and havoc) on earth are headed to another FIRE.
The fact that the phrase "like a fire" is used is showing that an analogy is being made.
If you were right to say that the fire of hell simply means an on-going fire where rubbish was thrown, what would be the point of comparing the havoc created by a vicious tongue to that? For a comparison to make sense, then the two things must have something in common. The fire of the tongue must have something in common with the fire in hell.
So, how was the fire of the tongue explained? What did is have in common with the fire of hell?
When people on earth experience the results of ITthen torment, havoc, troubles are felt by those people.
So what might the fire of hell be?
When people experience the fire hell then torment, havoc, and troubles are felt by those people.
So I conclude that the torment and havoc created by a fiery tongue will one day be an experience awaiting those who caused the torment and havoc.
I guess you probably have a different view of "the Bosom of Abraham" and the place where the rich Lazarus longed for a drop of water due to his suffering the heat...
But what are your thoughts about the pit
Do you think that people will only suffer the fire of the garbage dump because they will be thrown in it alive?
Scripture talks about people who SUFFER hell fire. They suffer due to the fire.
How do you interpret the word "suffer" in the text.
There is a way to use the word "suffer" ... as in suffer the little children to come unto me... which I assume means - allow or don't stand in their way... BUT this just doesn't fit the contextual use of the word in a sentence that says: "will suffer hell fire."
If the people who are alive at the end time are thrown alive into the specific "fire dump" to endure suffering ... why would there be the need to give warnings of danger for people all along the course of history about the fire of hell?
Take for instance the warnings given in Matthew 5:22 KJV; ... "shall be in danger of hell fire."
Speaking of words consider "forever."
That means something without end.
In one instance, regarding the burning in the Lake of Fire, it was said that the beast, false prophet, and devil would burn forever in the Lake of fire. That means the fire lasts eternally; their individual awareness lasts forever, and their suffering lasts forever.
Now whether the burning in a place we will call "hell" lasts forever for human beings is certainly debatable. But I have a question for you. If "hell" is not a literal place that last until the time of the Lake of Fire, then why would scripture talk about casting IT into the Lake of Fire?
Death is an established process that is on-going and it will one day be cast into the Lake of Fire which will end that process.
I conclude that "hell" must be an on-going place so that it also will one day be cast into the Lake of Fire which will do away with that realm.
Now, an interesting question might be: What is the Lake of Fire. I have some thoughts on this, but that is a different topic.
Back to my previous post when I mentioned James 3:6 KJV, where
the "fire of hell/ hell fire" is used to discuss the end results of any people having evil tongues while in this world ... it is said that people with fiery tongues are reeking havock whenever they are on earth... and scripture compares how they are tormenting others with what is experienced in "the fire of hell."
quote: My words inside of (...)
And the tongue is (like) a fire, (it is) a world of (full of) iniquity (inappropriate trouble or evil): so is the tongue among our (individual bodily) members, that it (the tongue) defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature (its direction within this realm); and it is set on (a course for the) fire of hell.
IOW, the torment and havoc that can be produced on earth through the use of a wicked tongue is compared to or like [i]"fire"[/b].
Then the analogy is completed when it says that those causing that FIRE (torment and havoc) on earth are headed to another FIRE.
The fact that the phrase "like a fire" is used is showing that an analogy is being made.
If you were right to say that the fire of hell simply means an on-going fire where rubbish was thrown, what would be the point of comparing the havoc created by a vicious tongue to that? For a comparison to make sense, then the two things must have something in common. The fire of the tongue must have something in common with the fire in hell.
So, how was the fire of the tongue explained? What did is have in common with the fire of hell?
When people on earth experience the results of ITthen torment, havoc, troubles are felt by those people.
So what might the fire of hell be?
When people experience the fire hell then torment, havoc, and troubles are felt by those people.
So I conclude that the torment and havoc created by a fiery tongue will one day be an experience awaiting those who caused the torment and havoc.
I guess you probably have a different view of "the Bosom of Abraham" and the place where the rich Lazarus longed for a drop of water due to his suffering the heat...
But what are your thoughts about the pit
Do you think that people will only suffer the fire of the garbage dump because they will be thrown in it alive?
Scripture talks about people who SUFFER hell fire. They suffer due to the fire.
How do you interpret the word "suffer" in the text.
There is a way to use the word "suffer" ... as in suffer the little children to come unto me... which I assume means - allow or don't stand in their way... BUT this just doesn't fit the contextual use of the word in a sentence that says: "will suffer hell fire."
If the people who are alive at the end time are thrown alive into the specific "fire dump" to endure suffering ... why would there be the need to give warnings of danger for people all along the course of history about the fire of hell?
Take for instance the warnings given in Matthew 5:22 KJV; ... "shall be in danger of hell fire."
The big question concerning those that will burn in hell centers around the character of God. Do we agree that God is good and merciful? Yes. Is God fair? Yes. Is God a tyrant? I say no, He isn’t. With that said, how can people burn in hell for eternity? Wouldn’t that also mean they have eternal life?
This belief that "sinners burn in hell forever" has caused so many to turn from God and the teachings of Christianity. The problem is that mainstream Christianity, not the Bible, erroneously teaches that hell burns forever and that gives the impression that we are serving a tyrant. That simply is not true, that teaching is alien to the scriptures. However, when all is said and done, hell is not eternal, the meaning of “for ever” in the Bible does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity – it merely means “until it is done”.
Here is another good explanation of death I came across that I want to share:
"...THE only knowledge we have about the condition of death that God reveals in His word, the Holy Bible. No one has come back from the grave to tell us his impressions of the after-death state. Lazarus was raised from the dead by our Lord, but nothing is recorded regarding a visit to heaven or any other place during the four days he was dead. The Lord alone can tell us what the state of the departed is, and we should accept His teachings. All other speculation is a waste of time.
We have a few examples of persons who were dead and were raised to life again. Moses died and was buried, but the Lord raised him and took him to heaven. Deuteronomy 34:5,6, Jude 9; Matthew 7:1-3. Elijah was translated without seeing death (2Kings 2:10) and so was Enoch (Genesis 5:24). There was also a multitude that rose from the dead when Jesus came back to life. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the Holy City, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:52,53. They went to heaven when Jesus ascended.
Ephesians 4:8....
It was such an unusual occurrence for those persons to go to heaven that Holy Writ recorded it. However, this does not prove that all go to heaven when they die or are raised from the dead before the generalresurrection. We quote: "David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34. If he did not go to heaven, where did he go? Did he go to hell-fire? No! The Bible states that he went to the grave, and his sepulcher was still intact at the time of the apostles. "Let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." Verse 29. David was dead, not alive; and he went to the grave.
Jesus makes it plain that people do not go to heaven immediately when they die, but go there after the resurrection. Jesus said: "I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself. That where I am, there you may be also." John 14:2,3. Jesus has not come yet, so the righteous are not yet in heaven. They will go there when Jesus comes to take them. We know that the Lord has not yet come, for "every eye shall see Him" when He comes. Revelation 1:7. This has not yet taken place. All the dead will rest in their graves until that day. If those who have died are now rejoicing in heaven, how could Jesus say that He will receive them when He comes?
When Jesus comes back to this earth He will come visibly. If "every eye shall see him," He surely will be seen. "And when He [jesus] had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11. When Jesus comes He comes visibly, and He will receive the righteous.
Daniel rests in the grave "till the end be;" and that time has obviously not come. Daniel 12:13. So he is not in heaven. If the righteous do not go to heaven at death, but after they are raised from the dead, where do the wicked go when they die? "The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2: 9. The wicked are "reserved unto judgment." Verse 4. That is, they will be judged first, then they will be punished. You would not punish first, and then judge; and neither would God. You do not send a man to jail for ten years and then take him out to see what sentence he deserves.
The Bible states clearly that the wicked are reserved "unto the day of judgment to be punished." If the unjust are reserved to be judged, first, it is evident that they are not in hell before the judgment takes place. The judgment takes place after we die. Hebrews 9:27. The Lord has appointed a day when He will judge the world. Acts 17:30, 2 Corinthians 5: 10; Ecclesiastes 12:14. The judgment was still future in the time of Christ. Matthew 12:4 1; 11:22. It was still future in the time of Paul. Acts 24:25; Romans 2:16. If the judgment was yet future at that time, then all the people that had died before were not yet judged. How then could they be in hell or heaven? Even the evil angels are reserved to be judged before their final punishment. 2 Peter 2:4.... This punishment comes after the resurrection. Revelation 20:4-9. The righteous go to heaven after the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. The judgment is not completed until the verdict of God is pronounced: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still. And he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11.
Jesus speaks about the separation of the wicked from the righteous "as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom.... Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:32-41.
When God has given the verdict, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still," there is no case where this decision is revoked. His judgment is final. God cannot say that a person is guilty and not guilty at the same time. No one is half-saved or half-condemned. If this could be so, then God would not be certain of His decisions. He would have to alter cases. This would make God an unreliable judge. "Let God be true, but every man a liar." Romans 3:4
God knows whether a man is guilty or not guilty. He knows whether a person has been a great sinner or whether he barely missed heaven, and He judges accordingly. He gives everyone according to his works.... The righteous and the wicked go to the grave, and remain there until the resurrection. They do not go to a place called hell or to heaven immediately at death. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:2,8,29.
The dead, both righteous and unrighteous, come forth from the graves and not from heaven or hell. They come from the place where they were while dead, which is the grave. While the dead are in their graves, do they have any consciousness or feeling; can they remember, see, hear, and talk?
...The Bible tells us plainly that the dead do not remember. In death there is no remembrance of Thee." Psalm 6:5. If there is no remembrance, then that quality of the mind does not exist. While we are alive we can remember, but after death we do not remember. "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4.....If the thoughts perish when a person dies, he surely cannot think. There is no consciousness.
When we die, God takes the breath of life, also called the spirit, away from us, and then all consciousness ceases. It takes the spirit and the body to produce consciousness, and when the two are severed, all consciousness and feeling cease.
Many times we hear it said at funeral services that the deceased person is in heaven praising God, singing before the throne, and interceding for us before the Father; but what does the Bible teach? "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence [the grave]." Psalm 115:17 ...... How could the dead praise the Lord after God has taken away the breath of life and the body is decomposed? How could they praise the Lord after death, when the Bible says, "The dead praise not the Lord?" This would be impossible, because their memory is taken away, they cannot think, and their thoughts have perished.
Death is compared with sleep. "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thessalonians 4:13 ....Jesus spoke of Lazarus's death as a sleep. "Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.... Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death." John 11:11-13. When a person is asleep, he is unconscious and knows not what happens around him. The dead are similarly unconscious......." excerpts from What Catholics and Protestants Should Know by J. H. MEIER
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
June 28th, 2012, 10:22 PM
Hi Hobie,
You wrote:
Quote:
The big question concerning those that will burn in hell centers around the character of God. Do we agree that God is good and merciful? Yes. Is God fair? Yes. Is God a tyrant? I say no, He isn’t. With that said, how can people burn in hell for eternity? Wouldn’t that also mean they have eternal life?
At this time I do not believe they do burn in hell forever. In fact I do not even think that hell (a place where lost souls are presently suffering in some fashion) lasts forever.
I believe life on earth as we know it and life in hell will all end one day.
There is going to come a time when God will have finished his work and all things will have been perfected and made new and old things will have passed away. It is then that things will go on forever as promised.
The only reason we continue to suffer here on earth, even after Christ has returned, is because things will continue until God is ready to do away with the things he established. Since babies are still being born and God is still taking time to welcome "saved" souls, then he is not going to end all things.
We can't complain too much or at all about whether he is fair or not ... because after all He, being our creator, was willing to come as a man and suffer and die a terrible death for our sake ... even before he ever created us. If I were God ... I sort of wouldn't like that PLAN too much... but then I am weak and he is strong.
I believe that only God is the embodiment of eternal life... yet he has made a promise to mankind. To one day sustain all those "saved" forever - forward. We usually refer to that as: receiving our measure of eternal life.
Until God is ready to do this... mankind's suffering and life will continue in some fashion some where -(either in this world physically or in a spiritual realm).
You say:
Quote:
This belief that "sinners burn in hell forever" has caused so many to turn from God and the teachings of Christianity. The problem is that mainstream Christianity, not the Bible, erroneously teaches that hell burns forever and that gives the impression that we are serving a tyrant. That simply is not true, that teaching is alien to the scriptures. However, when all is said and done, hell is not eternal, the meaning of “for ever” in the Bible does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity – it merely means “until it is done”.
Well, since I believe that there is a place called "hell" that lasts until IT along with the process of death is cast into the Lake of Fire ... then I believe it would be cruel not to warn people of the danger of the Fire of hell. Scripture warns people.
You mentioned a few verses:
Quote:
We have a few examples of persons who were dead and were raised to life again. Moses died and was buried, but the Lord raised him and took him to heaven. Deuteronomy 34:5,6, Jude 9; Matthew 7:1-3.
Moses died for sure. In Jude ... the argument was over who had the right to possess the the body of Moses. Satan thought he had a right to possess it because Moses had committed such a terrible sin ... and Satan through the curse upon him in Genesis 3 had been told to partake of the dust of the ground for the rest of his life. "Dust of the ground" has to do with a dead person's body. When a human life is circumcised from its dead body, the body turns back into dust. Satan has a right to possess it unless the LORD harvests it.
The story in Jude was a great example that God chooses whom he will save ... and that sins can be forgiven. It is obvious that Moses spiritual life continued and not in hell ... for he appeared with Elijah sporting their shining white robes of the saints.
Life continues ... some are wearing robes of white where they appear before the Lord. II Corin. 5:2,4,8 KJV until they receive their glorified bodies.
You complain that people are scared when they are warned about hell, but I say they are not turn on about our LORD because we don't make it clear to them about what is the "good news!"
You've concluded:
Quote:
Jesus makes it plain that people do not go to heaven immediately when they die, but go there after the resurrection. Jesus said: "I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself. That where I am, there you may be also."
Well, I think he has already gone and has a place where he stores his harvest. One day we will be with him in his finished kingdom forever more.
Read II Corin. 5:1,2 KJV My interpretation within (...)
You will see where Paul makes this statement:
1 For we know that if our earthly house (mortal body) of this tabernacle (earthly realm) were dissolved, we have a building (a different body type) of God, an house (body) not made with hands, (a body that is) eternal in the heavens. (Not necessarily meaning in the kingdom of our LORD... but rather somewhere within the heavenssss).
2 For in this (mortal body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is (our different body type) from heaven
3 If so be that being clothed (with a different body) we shall not be found naked (invisible).
9 Wherefore (Because of this truth) we (presently) labour, (so) that, whether present (in this mortal body) or absent (and in the body awaiting us), we may be accepted of him.
IOW, there is body prepared for us that awaits us immediately upon our being absent from this present body ... so that when we are absent from this body we will still appear in a particular place in the heavensss.
You have written many other interesting things, but I could not respond to them all. I will simply say: Our Lord Jesus has come ... and did go to prepare a place for us and he will come again... and at some point even after his second coming ... he will finally end all his work and make all things righteous.
At this time I do not believe they do burn in hell forever. In fact I do not even think that hell (a place where lost souls are presently suffering in some fashion) lasts forever.
I believe life on earth as we know it and life in hell will all end one day.
There is going to come a time when God will have finished his work and all things will have been perfected and made new and old things will have passed away. It is then that things will go on forever as promised.
The only reason we continue to suffer here on earth, even after Christ has returned, is because things will continue until God is ready to do away with the things he established. Since babies are still being born and God is still taking time to welcome "saved" souls, then he is not going to end all things.
We can't complain too much or at all about whether he is fair or not ... because after all He, being our creator, was willing to come as a man and suffer and die a terrible death for our sake ... even before he ever created us. If I were God ... I sort of wouldn't like that PLAN too much... but then I am weak and he is strong.
I believe that only God is the embodiment of eternal life... yet he has made a promise to mankind. To one day sustain all those "saved" forever - forward. We usually refer to that as: receiving our measure of eternal life.
Until God is ready to do this... mankind's suffering and life will continue in some fashion some where -(either in this world physically or in a spiritual realm).
You say:
Well, since I believe that there is a place called "hell" that lasts until IT along with the process of death is cast into the Lake of Fire ... then I believe it would be cruel not to warn people of the danger of the Fire of hell. Scripture warns people.
You mentioned a few verses:
Moses died for sure. In Jude ... the argument was over who had the right to possess the the body of Moses. Satan thought he had a right to possess it because Moses had committed such a terrible sin ... and Satan through the curse upon him in Genesis 3 had been told to partake of the dust of the ground for the rest of his life. "Dust of the ground" has to do with a dead person's body. When a human life is circumcised from its dead body, the body turns back into dust. Satan has a right to possess it unless the LORD harvests it.
The story in Jude was a great example that God chooses whom he will save ... and that sins can be forgiven. It is obvious that Moses spiritual life continued and not in hell ... for he appeared with Elijah sporting their shining white robes of the saints.
Life continues ... some are wearing robes of white where they appear before the Lord. II Corin. 5:2,4,8 KJV until they receive their glorified bodies.
You complain that people are scared when they are warned about hell, but I say they are not turn on about our LORD because we don't make it clear to them about what is the "good news!"
You've concluded:
Well, I think he has already gone and has a place where he stores his harvest. One day we will be with him in his finished kingdom forever more.
Read II Corin. 5:1,2 KJV My interpretation within (...)
You will see where Paul makes this statement:
1 For we know that if our earthly house (mortal body) of this tabernacle (earthly realm) were dissolved, we have a building (a different body type) of God, an house (body) not made with hands, (a body that is) eternal in the heavens. (Not necessarily meaning in the kingdom of our LORD... but rather somewhere within the heavenssss).
2 For in this (mortal body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is (our different body type) from heaven
3 If so be that being clothed (with a different body) we shall not be found naked (invisible).
9 Wherefore (Because of this truth) we (presently) labour, (so) that, whether present (in this mortal body) or absent (and in the body awaiting us), we may be accepted of him.
IOW, there is body prepared for us that awaits us immediately upon our being absent from this present body ... so that when we are absent from this body we will still appear in a particular place in the heavensss.
You have written many other interesting things, but I could not respond to them all. I will simply say: Our Lord Jesus has come ... and did go to prepare a place for us and he will come again... and at some point even after his second coming ... he will finally end all his work and make all things righteous.
God bless you as you study his word, it is hard to see everything clearly but the Holy Spirit can guide you into understanding and the truth that God gives us. Its a deep subject that touches on many truths and I wish I could read the original Hebrew as the Greek translations use words that can throw you and make it tough.
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
June 29th, 2012, 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie
God bless you as you study his word, it is hard to see everything clearly but the Holy Spirit can guide you into understanding and the truth that God gives us. Its a deep subject that touches on many truths and I wish I could read the original Hebrew as the Greek translations use words that can throw you and make it tough.
Same to you, and I agree that there is so much to study. I enjoyed sharing thoughts with you and others on this thread.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (a) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (b) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (c) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (d) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
a. Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36.
b. Lk. 23:43; Eccl. 12:7.
c. Heb. 12:23; 2 Cor. 5:1,6,8; Phil. 1:23 with Acts 3:21 and Eph. 4:10.
d. Lk. 16:23-24; Acts 1:25; Jude 6,7; 1 Pet.3:19.
life, death, rebirth.......... -
June 30th, 2012, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sealeaf
Annihalation is not possible.
But death and dis-integration of life-forms is, such is the cycle of conditional existence,.....impermanence,...on-going change.
Quote:
Everything that has ever existed is part of the 4 dimentional nature of the Universe. Nothing can be erased.
Yes,....all is energy and consciousness. It merely undergoes 'transformation'.
Quote:
If it were possible to erase negative events surely God would have erased Satan.
But satan and all negative entities, forces, polarities, personalities are a part of the duality of the world, the 'yin' and 'yang', the 'negative' and 'positive' poles of relative existence. The world includes all these polarities, from the grossest evil to the highest good. Such is where all possibilities and potentials are free to express.
Quote:
I believe in everlasting existence because relativity theory tells me so.
Yes. That which is truly eternal, infinite, unborn, undying, unchanging in its essence,....is everlasting (pure awareness/consciousness). All else is a continuum of change, transformation, movement.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (a) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (b) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (c) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (d) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
a. Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36.
b. Lk. 23:43; Eccl. 12:7.
c. Heb. 12:23; 2 Cor. 5:1,6,8; Phil. 1:23 with Acts 3:21 and Eph. 4:10.
d. Lk. 16:23-24; Acts 1:25; Jude 6,7; 1 Pet.3:19.
Yes, but the Egytian book of the Dead probably had a equivalent quote, but did it make it true, of course not. They had pagan beliefs that the Babylonians and others picked up, including the Greeks.
'The Egyptians had elaborate beliefs about death and the afterlife. They believed that humans possessed a ka, or life-force, which left the body at the point of death. In life, the ka received its sustenance from food and drink, so it was believed that, to endure after death, the ka must continue to receive offerings of food, whose spiritual essence it could still consume. Each person also had a ba, the set of spiritual characteristics unique to each individual.[30] Unlike the ka, the ba remained attached to the body after death. Egyptian funeral rituals were intended to release the ba from the body so that it could move freely, and to rejoin it with the ka so that it could live on as an akh. However, it was also important that the body of the deceased be preserved, as the Egyptians believed that the ba returned to its body each night to receive new life, before emerging in the morning as an akh.[31]
Originally, however, the Egyptians believed that only the pharaoh had a ba,[32] and only he could become one with the gods; dead commoners passed into a dark, bleak realm that represented the opposite of life.[33] The nobles received tombs and the resources for their upkeep as gifts from the king, and their ability to enter the afterlife was believed to be dependent on these royal favors.[34] In early times the deceased pharaoh was believed to ascend to the sky and dwell among the stars'
But death and dis-integration of life-forms is, such is the cycle of conditional existence,.....impermanence,...on-going change.
Yes,....all is energy and consciousness. It merely undergoes 'transformation'.
But satan and all negative entities, forces, polarities, personalities are a part of the duality of the world, the 'yin' and 'yang', the 'negative' and 'positive' poles of relative existence. The world includes all these polarities, from the grossest evil to the highest good. Such is where all possibilities and potentials are free to express.
Yes. That which is truly eternal, infinite, unborn, undying, unchanging in its essence,....is everlasting (pure awareness/consciousness). All else is a continuum of change, transformation, movement.
pj
Here is a great elaberation on the issue from by Samuele Bacchiocchi with his permission:
'...Hell: Eternal torment or annihilation?
Hell is a biblical doctrine. But what kind of hell? A place where the impenitent sinners burn forever and consciously suffer pain in an everlasting and never-ending fire? Or a penal judgment through which God annihilates sinners and sin forever?
Traditionally, over the centuries, churches have taught and preachers have thundered hell as an eternal torment. But in recent times, we seldom hear the old “fire and brimstone” sermons, even from fundamentalist preachers, who may be theoretically still committed to such a belief. Their reticence to preach on eternal torment is more likely not due to a lack of integrity in proclaiming an unpopular truth, but to their aversion to preaching a doctrine they find it hard to believe. After all, how is it possible that the God, who so loved the world to send His only begotten Son to save sinners, can also be a God who tortures people (even the worst of sinners) forever, time without end? How can God be a God of love and justice and yet torment sinners forever in hell fire?
This unacceptable paradox has led Bible scholars of all persuasions to re-examine the biblical teachings regarding hell and final punishment.1
The fundamental question is: Does hellfire torment the lost eternally or consume them permanently? Responses to this question vary. Two recent interpretations designed to make hell more humane deserve brief mention.
Alternative views on hell
Metaphorical view of hell. The metaphorical interpretation holds that hell is everlasting torment, but the suffering is more mental than physical. The fire is not literal but figurative, and the pain is caused more by a sense of separation from God than by physical torments.2
Billy Graham expresses this metaphorical view when he says: “I have often wondered if hell is a terrible burning within our hearts for God, to fellowship with God, a fire that we can never quench.”3 Graham’s interpretation is ingenious, to say the least. Unfortunately, it ignores the fact that the biblical description of “burning” refers not to a burning within the heart, but to a place where the wicked are consumed.
William Crockett also argues for the metaphorical view: “Hell, then, should not be pictured as an inferno belching fire like Nebuchadnezzar’s fiery furnace. The most we can say is that the rebellious will be cast from the presence of God, without any hope of restoration. Like Adam and Eve they will be driven away, but this time into ‘eternal night,’ where joy and hope are forever lost.”4
The problem with this view of hell is that it merely wants to replace physical torment with mental anguish. Some may question if eternal mental anguish is really more humane than physical torment. Even if that were true, the lowering of the pain quotient in a non-literal hell does not substantially change the nature of hell, since it still remains a place of unending torment.
The solution is to be found not in humanizing or sanitizing the traditionalist view of hell so that it may ultimately prove to be a more tolerable place for the wicked to spend eternity, but in understanding the true nature of the final punishment which, as we shall see, is permanent annihilation and not eternal torment.
The universalist view of hell. A second and more radical revision of hell has been attempted by universalists who reduce hell to a temporary condition of graded punishments that ultimately leads to heaven. Universalists believe that ultimately God will succeed in bringing every human being to salvation and eternal life so that no one, in fact, will be condemned in the final judgment to either eternal torment or annihilation.5
No one can deny the appeal universalism has for the Christian conscience, because any person who has sensed God’s love longs to see Him save everyone. Yet, our appreciation for the universalists’ concern to uphold the triumph of God’s love and to refute the unbiblical concept of eternal suffering must not blind us to the fact that this doctrine is a serious distortion of biblical teaching. Universal salvation cannot be right just because eternal suffering is wrong. The universal scope of God’s saving purpose must not be confused with the fact that those who reject His provision of salvation will perish.
While both the metaphorical and universalistic views represent well-meaning attempts to soften the concept of eternal suffering, they fail to do justice to the biblical data and thus ultimately misrepresent the biblical doctrine of the final punishment of the unsaved. The sensible solution to the problems of the traditionalist view is to be found, not by lowering or eliminating the pain quotient of a literal hell but, by accepting hell for what it is: the final punishment and permanent annihilation of the wicked. As the Bible says: “The wicked will be no more” (Psalm 37:10, RSV)* because “their end is destruction” (Philippians 3:19).
The annihilation view of hell
The belief in the final annihilation of the lost is based on four major biblical considerations: (1) death as punishment of sin; (2) the biblical vocabulary on the destruction of the wicked; (3) the moral implications of eternal torment; and (4) the cosmological implications of eternal torment.
Death as punishment of sin. The final annihilation of impenitent sinners is indicated, first of all, by the fundamental biblical principle that the final punishment of sin is death: “The soul that sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20); “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). The punishment of sin, of course, comprises not only the first death, which all experience as a result of Adam’s sin, but also what the Bible calls the second death (Revelation 20:14; 21:8), which is the final, irreversible death experienced by impenitent sinners. This means that the ultimate wages of sin is not eternal torment, but permanent death.
The Bible teaches death to be the cessation of life. Were it not for the assurance of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:18), the death that we experience would be the termination of our existence. It is the resurrection that turns death from being the final end of life into being a temporary sleep. But there is no resurrection from the second death, because those who experience it are consumed in “the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14). That will be the final annihilation.
The biblical vocabulary on the destruction of the wicked. The second compelling reason for believing in the annihilation of the lost at the final judgment is the rich vocabulary of destruction used in the Bible to describe the end of the wicked. According to Basil Atkinson, the Old Testament uses more than 25 nouns and verbs to describe the final destruction of the wicked.6
Several psalms, for example, describe the final destruction of the wicked with dramatic imagery (Psalm 1:3-6; 2:9-12; 11:1-7; 34:8-22; 58:6-10; 69:22-28; 145:17, 20). In Psalm 37, for example, we read that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass” (vs. 2); they “shall be cut off . . . and ... will be no more” (vss. 9, 10); they will “perish . . . like smoke they vanish away” (vs. 20); “transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (vs. 38). Psalm 1 contrasts the way of the righteous with that of the wicked. Of the latter it says that “the wicked will not stand in the judgment” (vs. 5); they will be “like chaff which the wind drives away” (vs. 4); “the way of the wicked will perish” (vs. 6). In Psalm 145, David affirms: “The Lord preserves all who love him; but all the wicked he will destroy” (vs. 20). This sampling of references on the final destruction of the wicked is in complete harmony with the teaching of the rest of Scripture.
The prophets frequently announce the ultimate destruction of the wicked in conjunction with the eschatological day of the Lord. Isaiah proclaims that “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed” (Isaiah 1:28). Similar descriptions are seen in Zephaniah (1:15, 17, 18) and Hosea (13:3).
The last page of the Old Testament provides a descriptive contrast of the destiny of believers and unbelievers. On those that fear the Lord, “the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings” (Malachi 4:2). But with unbelievers the day of the Lord “shall burn them up. . . so that it will leave them neither root nor branch” (Malachi 4:1).
The New Testament follows closely the Old in describing the end of the wicked with words and pictures denoting total annihilation. Jesus compared the utter destruction of the wicked to such things as the weeds that are bound in bundles to be burned (Matthew 13:30, 40), the bad fish that is thrown away (Matthew 13:48), the harmful plants that are rooted up (Matthew 15:13), the fruitless trees that are cut down (Luke 13:7), the withered branches that are burned up (John 15:6), the unfaithful tenants who are destroyed (Luke 20:16), the evil servant who will be cut in pieces (Matthew 24:51), the antediluvians who were destroyed by the Flood (Luke 17:27), the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed by fire (Luke 17:29), and the rebellious servants who were slain at the return of their master (Luke 19:14, 27).
All these illustrations graphically depict the ultimate destruction of the wicked. The contrast between the destiny of the saved and that of the lost is one of life versus destruction.
Those who appeal to Christ’s references to hell or hellfire (gehenna, Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 18:8, 9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 44, 46, 47, 48) to support their belief in eternal torment, fail to recognize an important point. As John Stott points out, “The fire itself is termed ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable,’ but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which ‘goes up for ever and ever’ (Revelation 14:11; cf. 19:3).”7 Christ’s reference to gehenna does not indicate that hell is a place of unending torment. What is eternal or unquenchable is not the punishment but the fire which, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, causes the complete and permanent destruction of the wicked, a condition that lasts forever.
Christ’s declaration that the wicked “‘will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life’” (Matthew 25:46) is generally regarded as proof of the conscious eternal suffering of the wicked. This interpretation ignores the difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. The Greek aionios (“eternal”) literally means “age-lasting” and often refers to the permanence of the result rather than the continuation of a process. For example, Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire.” It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.
Another example is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where Paul, speaking of those who reject the gospel, says: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” It is evident that the destruction of the wicked cannot be eternal in its duration, because it is difficult to imagine an eternal, inconclusive process of destruction. Destruction presupposes annihilation. The destruction of the wicked is eternal, not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.
The language of destruction is inescapable in the Book of Revelation. There it represents God’s way of overcoming the opposition of evil to Himself and His people. John describes with vivid imagery the consignment of the devil, the beast, the false prophet, death, Hades, and all the wicked into the lake of fire, which is “the second death” (Revelation 21:8; cf. 20:14; 2:11; 20:6).
Jews frequently used the phrase “second death” to describe the final, irreversible death. Numerous examples can be found in the Targum, the Aramaic translation and interpretation of the Old Testament. For example, the Targum on Isaiah 65:6 reads: “Their punishment shall be in Gehenna where the fire burns all the day. Behold, it is written before me: ‘I will not give them respite during [their] life but will render them the punishment of their transgressions and will deliver their bodies to the second death.’”8
For the saved, the resurrection marks the reward of a second and higher life, but for the unsaved it marks the retribution of a second and final death. As there is no more death for the redeemed (Revelation 21:4), so there is no more life for the lost (Revelation 21:8). The “second death,” then, is the final, irreversible death. To interpret the phrase otherwise, as eternal conscious torment or separation from God, negates the biblical meaning of death as cessation of life.
The moral implications of eternal torment. A third reason for believing in the final annihilation of the lost is the unacceptable moral implications of the doctrine of eternal torment. The notion that God deliberately tortures sinners throughout the endless ages of eternity is totally incompatible with the biblical revelation of God as infinite love. A God who inflicts unending torture upon His creatures, no matter how sinful they may have been, cannot be the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ.
Does God have two faces? Is He boundlessly merciful on one side and insatiably cruel on the other? Can He love sinners so much that He sent His Son to save them, and yet hate impenitent sinners so much that He subjects them to unending cruel torment? Can we legitimately praise God for His goodness, if He torments sinners throughout the ages of eternity? The moral intuition God has implanted within our conscience cannot accept the cruelty of a deity who subjects sinners to unending torment. Divine justice could never demand for finite sins the infinite penalty of eternal pain.
Furthermore, eternal, conscious torment is contrary to the biblical vision of justice because such a punishment would create a serious disproportion between the sins committed during a lifetime and the resulting punishment lasting for all eternity. As John Stott asks, “Would there not, then, be a serious disproportion between sins consciously committed in time and torment consciously experienced throughout eternity? I do not minimize the gravity of sin as rebellion against God our Creator, but I question whether ‘eternal conscious torment’ is compatible with the Biblical revelation of divine justice.”9
The cosmological implications of eternal torment. A fourth and final reason for believing in the annihilation of the lost is that eternal torment presupposes an eternal cosmic dualism. Heaven and hell, happiness and pain, good and evil would continue to exist forever alongside each other. It is impossible to reconcile this view with the prophetic vision of the new world in which there shall be no more “‘mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away’” (Revelation 21:4). How could crying and pain be forgotten if the agony and anguish of the lost were permanent features of the new order?
The presence of countless millions forever suffering excruciating torment, even if it were far away from the camp of the saved, could only serve to destroy the peace and happiness of the new world. The new creation would turn out to be flawed from day one, since sinners would remain an eternal reality in God’s universe.
The purpose of the plan of salvation is to eradicate ultimately the presence of sin and sinners from this world. It is only if sinners, Satan, and the devils ultimately are consumed in the lake of fire and extincted in the second death that we truly can say that Christ’s redemptive mission has been accomplished. Everlasting torment would cast a permanent shadow of darkness over the new creation.
Our age desperately needs to learn the fear of God, and this is one reason for preaching the final judgment and punishment. We need to warn people that those who reject Christ’s principles of life and the provision of salvation ultimately will experience a fearful judgment and “suffer the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). We need to proclaim boldly the great alternatives between eternal life and permanent destruction. The recovery of the biblical view of the final judgment can loosen the preachers’ tongues, because they can then preach this vital doctrine without fear of portraying God as a monster...'
Here is a great elaberation on the issue from by Samuele Bacchiocchi with his permission:
'...Hell: Eternal torment or annihilation?
I would like to add from my first post on this thread Here, and agree with Mr. Bacchiocchi on some points, although my view is not based on a limited perspective of so called literal biblical interpretation.
Quote:
Hell is a biblical doctrine.
Yep, and so are alot of other subjects or concepts(literal & metaphoric), but 'interpretations' of such may be more or less imperfect.
Granted those of us who have studied this...know most of the 'allocations' of 'hell' scripturally speaking, but an important thing to note is that even the concept of 'annihilation' or 'destruction' can be metaphorically defined or interpreted, let alone what 'death' actually is ( it depend on how one defines it). - this is further complicated by the very ontology and metaphysics of 'soul life' and the very mechanics of 'personality', which I've alluded to the Urantia Papers giving a more detailed study on.
There's certainly alot more involved, and it is only an 'assumption' that the Bible gives a complete, perfect or inerrant description of such. Not to mention that other religious faith-traditions have both feasible and possible alternative views on the destiny of souls. What view 'you' or 'I' takes will be conditioned or influenced by so many factors. If one uses only the Bible for their literal definitions or theology, and the bible is by nature already imperfect, incomplete and limited in its concepts, then whatever one puts forth as 'biblical' becomes self-serving, and only a matter of 'assumption'.
Quote:
But what kind of hell? A place where the impenitent sinners burn forever and consciously suffer pain in an everlasting and never-ending fire? Or a penal judgment through which God annihilates sinners and sin forever?
Traditionally, over the centuries, churches have taught and preachers have thundered hell as an eternal torment. But in recent times, we seldom hear the old “fire and brimstone” sermons, even from fundamentalist preachers, who may be theoretically still committed to such a belief. Their reticence to preach on eternal torment is more likely not due to a lack of integrity in proclaiming an unpopular truth, but to their aversion to preaching a doctrine they find it hard to believe. After all, how is it possible that the God, who so loved the world to send His only begotten Son to save sinners, can also be a God who tortures people (even the worst of sinners) forever, time without end? How can God be a God of love and justice and yet torment sinners forever in hell fire?
This unacceptable paradox has led Bible scholars of all persuasions to re-examine the biblical teachings regarding hell and final punishment.
The fundamental question is: Does hellfire torment the lost eternally or consume them permanently? Responses to this question vary. Two recent interpretations designed to make hell more humane deserve brief mention.
As touched on previously,...any sane person can see that ECT (eternal conscious torment) is absurd, being illogical, unjust, unmerciful, basically 'insane'. Therefore another 'resolve' must be considered.
Quote:
Alternative views on hell
Metaphorical view of hell.
<snip>
Note that 'hell' still has metaphoric correlaries, and such would essentially be a conscious state of disharmony, dis-sease, unrest, insanity. Therefore beyond literal definitions of the original words translated into the english word 'hell' in the Bible,....'hell' is still just as miserable a 'place' as traditionally 'imagined'. It is the epitome of unhappiness. (playing again on popular concepts).
Quote:
The universalist view of hell.
<snip>
In some aspects Universalism trumps annihilationism, because ultimately all souls awaken to truth and enter into perfect unity with Source, since that Source is originally perfect and true, the essence of Love itself. In this way divine will ultimately triumphs because it is all that is essentially REAL. All else is more or less unreal, illusionary, imperfect, sin-ful. In this respect, as I hold 'God' to be the only universal, eternal and infintie reality, being ABSOLUTE....only 'God' ultimately prevails, and that which is within the constitution and potential of Man finally and ultimately realizes this, because that pure essence and divine will is 'God'. More of a case could be made for Universalism.
A previous battle royal where the case for Universalism is presented and contested -
While some protest that ECT is rather 'harsh',....it could be seen that 'God' totally destroying souls rendering them 'non-existent' is an even more 'grave' action (pardon the pun). Also some think the saved in 'heaven' will greive over unsaved loved ones agonizing in hell forever, - I suppose the saved will be somehow more consoled to know that their unsaved loved ones are forever expunged from existence altogether - one is at a loss either way here, but 'Universalism' kinda solves that
Finally, you dont know for sure, you can only conceptualize, figure and assume from your present library of knowledge, intellectual capacity and spiritual insight....what really happens to the wicked, both temporally and eternally. It might be swell to realize uncle Bob and Aunt Margie have been expunged out of existence altogether (vaporized into nothingness), but again....this could be ontologically or metaphysically problematic, depending on your personal theology and understanding of 'energy' and 'consciousness', let alone the unique dynamics of 'personality'.
You were given the biblical answer to your question. You post with the label "Christian", so I assume you agree with the Scripture included in my response, or are prepared to provide exegetical responses to support whatever position you are trying to advocate.
It is really quite simple, do you or do you not believe in the eternal torment of the reprobate?
Slogan/motto:
Ps82 KJV You will die like mere men, you will fall like one of the princes, but who is it that is not a man that dies like a man?
Reputation:
July 2nd, 2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sealeaf
Annighalation is not possible. Everything that has ever existed is part of the 4 dimentional nature of the Universe. Nothing can be erased.
If it were possible to erase negative events surely God would have erased Satan.
I believe in everlasting existence because relativity theory tells me so.
I agree with you in part... but things that can be assembled can be disassembled.
All things that are exist in God, and God is in them, and of Him things consist.
When, God created things He allocated unto created things measures from His own nature. He spoke words that demanded particular composition for various things, set up behavior patterns and abilities, and needs.
In the same spoken way He allocated areas within himself to established realms for the existence of particular created things.
Within God's house (fullness of life) there are many mansions (established domains for measures of specified life).
You were given the biblical answer to your question. You post with the label "Christian", so I assume you agree with the Scripture included in my response, or are prepared to provide exegetical responses to support whatever position you are trying to advocate.
It is really quite simple, do you or do you not believe in the eternal torment of the reprobate?
AMR
Ok, answer me this, from the bible and the bible only....................
Did Sodom experience eternal fire.........?
Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom still burning....?
Genesis 13:10
Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)
2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
What does the Bible say happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, I will await your reply.......
life, death, rebirth.......... -
June 30th, 2012, 12:34 AM
- one is at a loss either way here, but 'Universalism' kinda solves that 
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