Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
It shouldn't be but you have made so. There is no "spirit of Adam" ruling anyone. __and what spirit of him would that be anyway__the one before he sinned or after he sinned? If before, what spirit would that be that he would yield to it that would cause him to sin, hmmmm? Aren't you the one who said God breathed on him the Holy Spirit? Hows all that fit in??
The spirit of man is the spirit of Adam and that is why the Scriptures say in Adam all men must die!
The Spirit of Christ cannot sin and if the Spirit of Christ is ruling over a person's heart that person will not sin as long as the spirit of Christ is the spirit in their heart.
It is the heart that matters and why Jesus said that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
When a Christian commits a sin it is because the Spirit of Christ is not the spirit that is ruling in their heart.
Otherwise, they would have not sinned
Get it?
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
The spirit of man is the spirit of Adam and that is why the Scriptures say in Adam all men must die!
Get it?
No__spell it out. Give scripture that says what it is you wish to convince me? __ <it ain't there> You gotta be making something say what it doesn't__and I know that but, go fer it. Lets see what you come up with.
BTW, I asked you what spirit was it__the before or after spirit of Adam? In other words, I am asking what spirit did Adam give into that made him sin? You said he had the Holy Spirit. Now what do you say?
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
No__spell it out. Give scripture that says what it is you wish to convince me? __ <it ain't there> You gotta be making something say what it doesn't__and I know that but, go fer it. Lets see what you come up with.
BTW, I asked you what spirit was it__the before or after spirit of Adam? In other words, I am asking what spirit did Adam give into that made him sin? You said he had the Holy Spirit. Now what do you say?
If you were capable of retaining something for more than 5 min. you would be much further ahead.
Just yesterday I was speaking of the verses in the Old Testament when God promised to put a new spirit in man and write His laws upon our heart.
That is the job of the Holy Spirit because the old spirit of man a.k.a. the spirit of Adam had the spirit of disobedience written on his heart.
Get it?
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
If you were capable of retaining something for more than 5 min. you would be much further ahead.
Just yesterday I was speaking of the verses in the Old Testament when God promised to put a new spirit in man and write His laws upon our heart.
That is the job of the Holy Spirit because the old spirit of man a.k.a. the spirit of Adam had the spirit of disobedience written on his heart.
Get it?
Doug
If you would understand what you read from scripture you would see He was speaking of the nation Israel. OMT, John, he's in the NT, spoke of purifying our own hearts.
Slogan/motto:
Ecclesiastes 1:9 ---
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
Oh? You must mean a Christian is not a saint? Then what is a Christian? How about a disciple__is he a saint?
This is what I said my definition of what a 'saint' is: a 'saint' is a person that is separated to God, a person that is consecrated to God, a person that is devoted to God; that obviously in the context that this 'saint' has accepted Jesus Christ and what He did for him/her at the Cross.
A Christian being a Christian because of Jesus Christ and what He did for him/her at the Cross, is separated, consecrated, devoted to God, and therefore, is, in the biblical definition, a saint.
Now, if you want me to say that the modern definition of what is a 'saint' = a person that is 'perfect' 'holy', 'beatified' human being, that I cannot do.
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
If you would understand what you read from scripture you would see He was speaking of the nation Israel. OMT, John, he's in the NT, spoke of purifying our own hearts.
So what if He was speaking to Israel?
Israel has the same spirit of Adam that everybody else in the world does when they are first born and that spirit cannot follow the law of God.
That is why the Jews as well as everybody else has to be born again of the Holy Spirit.
Dispensationalism commits spiritual abortion of the Scriptures. Even Paul said that what happened to the Jews was for our edification and for us to understand what will be, we first need to understand what were the prophecies behind the allegories and metaphors of the Old Testament.
This is why when speaking of the Jews (or anyone else without the Holy Spirit) Paul said they had a veil over their eyes and they could not understand the truth. However, he also said the veil is taken away by Christ because as it says in the New Testament, the testimony (presence) of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. Therefore with the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus in us we are supposed to be able to understand the Old Testament.
However dispensationalism puts the veil right back on.
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
Israel has the same spirit of Adam that everybody else in the world does when they are first born and that spirit cannot follow the law of God.
That is why the Jews as well as everybody else has to be born again of the Holy Spirit.
Dispensationalism commits spiritual abortion of the Scriptures. Even Paul said that what happened to the Jews was for our edification and for us to understand what will be, we first need to understand what were the prophecies behind the allegories and metaphors of the Old Testament.
This is why when speaking of the Jews (or anyone else without the Holy Spirit) Paul said they had a veil over their eyes and they could not understand the truth. However, he also said the veil is taken away by Christ because as it says in the New Testament, the testimony (presence) of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. Therefore with the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus in us we are supposed to be able to understand the Old Testament.
However dispensationalism puts the veil right back on.
Doug
We are given to purify our own hearts and souls after coming to Christ.
Made up. That was from Oprah, and "This is one of those doctrines passed down from Rome" does NADA to your "argument," except display sophistry.
People croaked before the law-no law, no transgression.
Romans 7
"I am carnal, sold under sin."under the power of the sin nature
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. " Rom. 7:17-18 KJV
"sin that dwelleth in" the sin nature
Since you build upon a faulty premise, I'll address this first.
There has always been law, and there has always been sin.
Adam sinned by disobeying a direct command from God. That's when sin entered the world...all of creation was cursed and death came to all because of Adam's sin.
The Law of God is written in the conscience of all men, "clearly seen" and "understood"....
Rom. 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We sin when we disobey the law written in our conscience. Thus there has been both the Law and sin from the beginning.
Rom. 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
Paul is not speaking of a "sin nature." He is saying once someone does commit sin, they become a slave to sin. Once we disobey the Law in our conscience, it becomes easier and easier to do so again and again.
Slogan/motto:
Your faith is what you believe in and by their fruit you shall know them
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
We are given to purify our own hearts and souls after coming to Christ.
Not quite although I understand the thought and intent behind what you are saying.
He is the Holy Spirit and is the baptism of fire that purifies us and it is his Holy Spirit that we are to live through. This is how Christ is formed in us through his Holy Spirit that is the seed that is Christ.
The original seed-spirit we were born with was Adam has grown into a tree of the knowledge of good and evil practicing both good and evil just like all of the human race
This is why when John the Baptist spoke of Jesus he said now the axe is laid to the trees so that the trees of the knowledge of good and evil can all die, so we can all live through the seed that is Christ in us that is our hope of glory (Christ being formed in us)
Hopefully you'll give this some deep thought
Blessings
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
"I am carnal, sold under sin."under the power of the sin nature
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. " Rom. 7:17-18 KJV
"sin that dwelleth in" the sin nature
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." 7:19-21
The evil in Paul, the sin that dwelled in Paul, is the sin nature.
"the law of sin which is in my members."- 7:22
The sin nature that dwelled in Paul.
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " Gal. 5:16-21 KJV
The works of the flesh, due to "the flesh", the sin nature.
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Romans 6:19 KJV
"the infirmity of your flesh"is the sin nature.
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." Romans 7:5 KJV
"in the flesh, the motions of sins...did work in our members", is the sin nature,
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.' Romans 7:25 KJV
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." Romans 8:5 KJV
Adam was created "good," yet he sinned. Why? Because of temptation, not because he had a sin nature. We, also, sin...not because of a sin nature, but because we are tempted.
Paul does not condemn the flesh of man. He does not in any way condemn the physical nature of man. It's clear because he thought of our Lord Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, as a real man with human flesh. He believed in the resurrection and a life in the body afterwards. He taught that the body of man is properly the temple of the Holy Ghost, and that the body is an offering acceptable and holy to God when consecrated to his service... an instrument of righteousness for the Christian, and he said that those who are now new creatures in Christ Jesus are no longer "in the flesh." Thus when he condemned the flesh and spoke of it in a derogatory way, he was not speaking of the physical flesh, nor of any inherited flaw in man himself.
Paul uses the word "flesh" to mean something very different from the physical flesh. He uses it to speak of the sinful condition of men who are completely given over to worldly and fleshly desires.
We are born into a world cursed because of Adam's sin. We aren't born with a sin nature. Sin is not passed down in any way...
This whole idea of man having a sin nature goes against the very Justice of our Great God, and it gives man an excuse for his behavior when God says there is none.
And hence, the reason for the cross of Christ. Those who propose the "stop sinning", "repent" of sins,......"(Lordship Salvation") method of justification, do not understand the gravity of sin, their utter depravity, and thus the solution for both the "sin and sins" issue-the cross. Sin includes not only actions, but all evil thoughts, purposes, words, desires, ........that are contrary to God's commands or law. Even "not thinking right" can be a sin(Proverbs 24:9 KJV, Mt. 5:28 KJV...). And even one offense makes you "guilty as charged", "cursed", sentenced to death(Galatians 3:10 KJV, James 2:10 KJV).
-the LORD God has declared all of us "guilty as charged"(Romans 3:19 KJV ), that we all "come short"(Romans 3:23 KJV) of the LORD God's standard of righteousness, which is the Lord Jesus Christ, in what we do(sins of "commission"), what we do not do(sins of "omission"), in what/how we think, in what/how we do not think...... And thus, sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being."
The "stop sinning", "repent of sins" advocates' dilemma is their failure to see their inherit wickedness, and many deny their sin nature, refusing to "shut up"(Romans 3:19 KJV-"that every mouth may be stopped") and admit their guilt("all the world may become guilty before God") in not only what they do, but "who they are" in Adam. It is not possible for the source of sins, the old "Adamic man, to be eradicated, while retaining sin, the product of that sinful source. Effect must have a cause. If you sin, you have its source, i.e., the old "Adamic man." Paul commands/exhorts the believer to "put off"(through faith) the old man, "which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts." Paul could not insist that a believer put off that which is not in residence.
I see by your statements above that you adhere to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity. If that's the case, then I can understand why you believe man has a sin nature.
To punish man for sinning then would be a great injustice. However, it is not what the Bible teaches us. Man is not at the mercy of a sin nature...he doesn't have that excuse. Worst of all, it makes God responsible for man's sin.
Nope. Think again. If Jesus was God at this point in time, He could never have been our example for life. The Word would have reneged on His being subjected to the flesh of Jesus, and Jesus being God as you say, would have no reward upon completing His mission earth. So there you have at least 3 reasons for "thinking again"..
Jesus was God's perfect representation of what man was intended to become when He created him. Think that through as well.
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