Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
JOHN'S BEGINNING... -
June 30th, 2012, 06:55 PM
JOHN'S BEGINNING
For another take on John's understanding of pre-existance...
This category has to do with the apostle John's use of the word "beginning" in his first letter:
1 John 1:1 - That which was from the beginning… the Word of life.
This introduction is very similar to the one John used in his gospel, which begins with: “In the beginning was the Word.” I believe that both refer to the same time, and that this time is synonymous with the time in Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning. Thus these three references refer to the time before (or at the front of) the six days of the (re?)creation of the world.
1 John 2:7 - I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
I can not help but think that John was alluding to Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?. If he is not alluding to Isaiah, he certainly is referring to the same truth in my opinion.
1 John 2:14 - I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning.
It probably is not necessary, but for the last time, “that is” is not in the Greek text. Therefore, in Greek, it reads, “known Him from the beginning.”
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
It should be noted that in the Bible, “the beginning” usually refers to all the time and events that happened before Genesis 1:2, viz., the time when the angels were created and the rebellion in Paradise took place.
1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.” This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.
1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
According to 2:7, we heard this commandment “from the beginning.”
Conclusion for John's Beginning.
When the word “beginning” has to do with Jesus or the devil, it means around the same time as Genesis 1:1 , that is, before or at the beginning of the six day creation (depending how one translates the “was - became” in Genesis 1:2).
Are we really warranted in redefining it whenever it refers to us? I know that it has been redefined to fit in with the traditional presuppositions (ie bias), regarding the creation of our spirit, but does this not constitute a twisting or taking Scripture out of context?
According to preconception theology, each of these references, by the same author, in the same letter, has the same meaning.
To my mind, this is much superior to two definitions of the same word, in the same letter, by the same author.
Why did John not use two different words if he meant two different times? I do not think that John was mixed up. In fact, I think he knew very well exactly what he was saying. He seems to be very good at saying it over, and over, and over, and over…
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Slogan/motto:
". . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttruscott
JOHN'S BEGINNING
For another take on John's understanding of pre-existance...
This category has to do with the apostle John's use of the word "beginning" in his first letter:
1 John 1:1 - That which was from the beginning… the Word of life.
This introduction is very similar to the one John used in his gospel, which begins with: “In the beginning was the Word.” I believe that both refer to the same time, and that this time is synonymous with the time in Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning. Thus these three references refer to the time before (or at the front of) the six days of the (re?)creation of the world.
1 John 2:7 - I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
I can not help but think that John was alluding to Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?. If he is not alluding to Isaiah, he certainly is referring to the same truth in my opinion.
1 John 2:14 - I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning.
It probably is not necessary, but for the last time, “that is” is not in the Greek text. Therefore, in Greek, it reads, “known Him from the beginning.”
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
It should be noted that in the Bible, “the beginning” usually refers to all the time and events that happened before Genesis 1:2, viz., the time when the angels were created and the rebellion in Paradise took place.
1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.” This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.
1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
According to 2:7, we heard this commandment “from the beginning.”
Conclusion for John's Beginning.
When the word “beginning” has to do with Jesus or the devil, it means around the same time as Genesis 1:1 , that is, before or at the beginning of the six day creation (depending how one translates the “was - became” in Genesis 1:2).
Are we really warranted in redefining it whenever it refers to us? I know that it has been redefined to fit in with the traditional presuppositions (ie bias), regarding the creation of our spirit, but does this not constitute a twisting or taking Scripture out of context?
According to preconception theology, each of these references, by the same author, in the same letter, has the same meaning.
To my mind, this is much superior to two definitions of the same word, in the same letter, by the same author.
Why did John not use two different words if he meant two different times? I do not think that John was mixed up. In fact, I think he knew very well exactly what he was saying. He seems to be very good at saying it over, and over, and over, and over…
Peace, Ted
This is a terrible abuse of Holy Scripture.
Apologetics for such nonsense should not be allowed on an "Exclusively Christian Forum."
This is not a Christian teaching at all; let alone representative of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I formally oppose and give warning against this assault of false teaching called "PCE" that has recently invaded TOL.
Nang
"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."
"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."
“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 07:47 PM
Well, before you kick me out, would you please answer my questions outstanding about Calvinism which have not been aswered yet?
Shall we ask an Arminian to judge your Calvinism?
Is the abuse as bad as the Pharisees accused our Lord for not keeping the law? Is the abuse as bad as the revelation about the resurrection of the faithful which the Sadducees attacked? Jesus and Paul sure abused the scriptures, didn't they?
And, If I may ask,
would you interupt your scurrilous attacks on PCE long enough to actually explain how you interpret the meaning of the word "beginning" in these verses? And why you think the same word means two different things in the same letter by the same man...
Let the reader compare???
As for being a Christian in good faith, I deny that you can find one instance in all that I have written in 375 posts where I break with traditional (even Calvinistic) definitions of Christ, salvation, redemption, grace, faith, the necessity of works or any other test you can improvise.
Peace to you or back to me,
Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
For another take on John's understanding of pre-existance...
This category has to do with the apostle John's use of the word "beginning" in his first letter:
1 John 1:1 - That which was from the beginning… the Word of life.
This introduction is very similar to the one John used in his gospel, which begins with: “In the beginning was the Word.” I believe that both refer to the same time, and that this time is synonymous with the time in Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning. Thus these three references refer to the time before (or at the front of) the six days of the (re?)creation of the world.
1 John 2:7 - I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
I can not help but think that John was alluding to Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?. If he is not alluding to Isaiah, he certainly is referring to the same truth in my opinion.
1 John 2:14 - I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning.
It probably is not necessary, but for the last time, “that is” is not in the Greek text. Therefore, in Greek, it reads, “known Him from the beginning.”
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
It should be noted that in the Bible, “the beginning” usually refers to all the time and events that happened before Genesis 1:2, viz., the time when the angels were created and the rebellion in Paradise took place.
1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.” This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.
1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
According to 2:7, we heard this commandment “from the beginning.”
Conclusion for John's Beginning.
When the word “beginning” has to do with Jesus or the devil, it means around the same time as Genesis 1:1 , that is, before or at the beginning of the six day creation (depending how one translates the “was - became” in Genesis 1:2).
Are we really warranted in redefining it whenever it refers to us? I know that it has been redefined to fit in with the traditional presuppositions (ie bias), regarding the creation of our spirit, but does this not constitute a twisting or taking Scripture out of context?
According to preconception theology, each of these references, by the same author, in the same letter, has the same meaning.
To my mind, this is much superior to two definitions of the same word, in the same letter, by the same author.
Why did John not use two different words if he meant two different times? I do not think that John was mixed up. In fact, I think he knew very well exactly what he was saying. He seems to be very good at saying it over, and over, and over, and over…
Peace, Ted
I must confess...I don't know what you're trying to say here. You reference Isaiah which speaks of our Lord coming to dwell among us...He who was from the beginning God.
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
I agree the beginning is at Creation....all things were created by the Word who was God in the beginning. So, what do you mean by this pre-creation stuff? God has no beginning, so what else besides the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
So what! He referred to Himself in the third person quite often. He frequently veiled who He was when speaking to the Jewish leaders. When will you come up with an explicit statement that denies that Jesus is God?
We have the word of the Father Himself whom you say is your God, Hebrews 1:8-10.
Ted, I think you have to introduce PCE without the Calvinism angle. It confuses your position because they go to traditional arguments or positions of Calvinism/Arminian and miss the significance of PCE which you have presented so well in the past. I sense and share your frustrations because you know it is my favorite subject
Slogan/motto:
". . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4
Reputation:
June 30th, 2012, 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlapalm
Ted, I think you have to introduce PCE without the Calvinism angle. It confuses your position because they go to traditional arguments or positions of Calvinism/Arminian and miss the significance of PCE which you have presented so well in the past.
All you weird PCE false teachers showed up on TOL at the same time.
Go away . . .
Nang
"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."
"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."
“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz
I must confess...I don't know what you're trying to say here. You reference Isaiah which speaks of our Lord coming to dwell among us...He who was from the beginning God.
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
I agree the beginning is at Creation....all things were created by the Word who was God in the beginning. So, what do you mean by this pre-creation stuff? God has no beginning, so what else besides the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
implies that we were there and everyone did learn of HIS divinity and power (as per Rom. 1:20) at that time.
So, what do you mean by this pre-creation stuff? I refer to my belief that GOD created all the spirits in HIS image before HE created the physical universe.
The angelic fall and the fall of HIS elect into sin all happened while we were in a state of ingenuous innocence pre-earth which ended by HIS revelation of HIS divininty.
So here on earth we do not have true free will anymore but an ordinary, teachable, decision making process predetermined to bring us to redemption in Christ, and sanctification by the Holy Spirit.
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang
All you weird PCE false teachers showed up on TOL at the same time.
Go away . . .
Nang
Well so much for scholastic rebuttal...
Tom and I met on another forum which shut down. We do not agree on much (he's much more mystical than I, ) except pce.
I found this by google, I don't know about him, so there was no collusion.
Your emotional reaction is the most extreme I've faced yet... lets leave ad hominems and get back to doctrine and the meaning of the word "beginning" as John uses it in his first letter.
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
Slogan/motto:
I know a lot of fancy dancers
People who can glide you on a floor
They move so smooth but have no answers
When you ask "Why'd you come here for?"
~ Cat Stevens
Reputation:
July 3rd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Is it the end, then...???
Peace, Ted
Wheat are NOT reborn tares !!!
Matt 13:36-43 good seed are sown by the Son of man tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil and, as per
Matthew 15:13 …Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up!
I'm curious as to what extra meaning, if any, you get out of PCE. Acknowledging a preexistence avails you nothing if you believe we were still created. It is just a slightly earlier creation.
Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
implies that we were there and everyone did learn of HIS divinity and power (as per Rom. 1:20) at that time.
The Hebrew word for "earth" is "eretz" and should have been translated "land" and not "earth." It is talking about the founding of the land of Israel and not the whole globe. They were there for the founding of Israel but not for the creation of the globe.
) except pce.
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