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What doctrines were in place prior to 367 AD? -
July 1st, 2012, 06:31 PM
Can anyone provide me with a list of the early Church doctrines and the dates they were adopted? Perhaps the Catholics have such a list? I looked online, and I couldn't find one with a search.
As I understand it, the NT, in its current form, comes from 367 AD. I am interested to know what doctrinal developments preceded it. For example, I think the first person to carry the title of Pope non-posthumously was Marcellinus (correct me if I am wrong Catholics) and he was "promoted" in 269. Thus, the office of Pope existed before we had a solid NT. Thanks.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
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July 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cracked
Protestants say Scripture, Catholics say Church. I wonder if, logically, we could somehow dissect, analyze and compare the two?
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Where does the authority lie?
Good question, I am glad you are exploring it.
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Originally Posted by Cracked
Can anyone provide me with a list of the early Church doctrines and the dates they were adopted? Perhaps the Catholics have such a list? I looked online, and I couldn't find one with a search.
As I understand it, the NT, in its current form, comes from 367 AD. I am interested to know what doctrinal developments preceded it. For example, I think the first person to carry the title of Pope non-posthumously was Marcellinus (correct me if I am wrong Catholics) and he was "promoted" in 269. Thus, the office of Pope existed before we had a solid NT. Thanks.
You have to understand that you are working with an organic body (the Church) that grows over time in natural ways.
So for example, Athanasius outlined what would become the definitive canon in 367 AD. But what was happening for 330 years before that? The early church, especially in their Eucharistic feasts (often initially referred to simply as the agape, and later distinguished into a dinner proper and the Eucharist) read scripture. They read old testament scripture and eventually started reading letters from bishops which were addressed to the respective churches. Though there were attempts to universalize the set of books read from, for a long time it was essentially up to the churches. So the canon organically developed. I went to a talk on the formation of the canon by my former deacon and a NT scholar which can be viewed here.
Doctrine surrounding the Papacy, like any Christian doctrine, was only formally defined once it was challenged. The same goes for the Trinity, Christology, doctrines of grace, etc. Now in the early church, like today, there were many sects claiming to be the "true church" and to have the correct doctrine (gnostics, Arians, Apollinarians, Docetists, Antinomianists, etc.). So the idea of Apostolic succession and Papal primacy came up here and there, but was never formally addressed at a council in the early days. Two good sources, one Biblical and one historical, are here and here. Some of the early fathers make strong references to the papacy and apostolic succession against heresy.
Another interesting point is that Eastern Orthodoxy (the other old church) agrees that the Pope of Rome is the first among the bishops. They disagree that the title is anything more than an honorific. But no tradition rooted deeply in history ignores that office altogether.
Hope that helps
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
July 1st, 2012, 07:12 PM
Sure, I wish Evoken or someone with a bit more learning was around. At worst you can visit a Catholic forum.
As for pre-367 doctrine, you have the Council of Nicea and some might say the Council of Jerusalem. We don't have as much specific information on the latter. Many of the early fathers referring to the Pope in their letters predated 367.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Sure, I wish Evoken or someone with a bit more learning was around. At worst you can visit a Catholic forum.
Don't sell yourself short--you, perhaps out of all the Catholics on this forum, are the best Catholic apologist despite how limited you believe your knowledge to be. I appreciate your humility.
Who assembled the writings, or when were the last writings? Which do you mean? The last writings were sometime before 70 AD.
Well, I believe that is debatable, especially in the case of Gospel of John, John's epistles, and Revelation. I would concede that they were all likely written within the first century. However, to answer you question, the assembly of the NT (as we have it today) seems to have been done somewhere about midway through the 4th century.
From the little looking I have found (without digging too deeply mind you) prior to the finally assembly of today's NT (not necessarily its canonization) we have Popes, prayers to the saints, and some basics of the Mary doctrines. Also, we have practices of confession, penance (I think), baptism, and the Eucharist. In addition we have the Desert Fathers and Mothers in the 3rd century (monks/nuns/hermits).
In the conflict with "arianism" most bishops at Nicea were faced with a suggestion to use the word homoousios [consubstantiality; Greek for the same substance or one substance] to express the relation of the Father to the Son. This word had been the subject of controversy in the third century, and had been declared heretical by a council in 268 [Council of Antioch per Athanasius, De Synodis 25, 45; & two other sources], but that was before anyone faced Arius' propositions. In the circumstances the bishops saw that the word was unacceptable to the Arians. They used it, and also condemned explicitly Arian theses. The Council's intent was incorporated into a creed [the Nicene Creed] which was written up...."[11] This was in 325 A.D. Before that we see there really was no settled doctrine. Being a doctrine of man, the Nicene Creed was amended in 381 by the Council of Constantinople to include the consubstantiality "one substance" of the Holy Ghost. These creeds were enforced by law of the Roman empire rather than by any beauty of the truth.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
July 3rd, 2012, 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTestament
In the conflict with "arianism" most bishops at Nicea were faced with a suggestion to use the word homoousios [consubstantiality; Greek for the same substance or one substance] to express the relation of the Father to the Son.
This word had been the subject of controversy in the third century, and had been declared heretical by a council in 268 [Council of Antioch per Athanasius, De Synodis 25, 45; & two other sources],
..Because of the way gnostic groups were using the word.
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but that was before anyone faced Arius' propositions. In the circumstances the bishops saw that the word was unacceptable to the Arians.
The concept. They were arguing over an idea, not a word.
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Being a doctrine of man, the Nicene Creed was amended in 381 by the Council of Constantinople to include the consubstantiality "one substance" of the Holy Ghost.
"Being a doctrine of man, Euclidean geometry was later added to to include calculus."
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These creeds were enforced by law of the Roman empire
Which shouldn't be any big surprise if you understand Constantine's desire for unity in the empire.
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rather than by any beauty of the truth.
Gee, I wonder what all the Bishops were doing, gathered together that summer of 325.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
I think some of the people from history before Constantine assembled it. You know the ones. Those that catholics try to call "Pope" even though it hadn't been invented yet.
"Being a doctrine of man, Euclidean geometry was later added to to include calculus."
Mathematical law is not doctrine. Something the "inspired" bishop of Rome failed to grasp so persecuted the likes of Galileo.
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Which shouldn't be any big surprise if you understand Constantine's desire for unity in the empire.
Oh, I understand Constantine's thirst for power quite well. The man who called himself the 13th apostle, yet didn't bother to get baptized till right before his death, and during his reign was the pontifex maximus of the roman pagan religion, and set up statues of the Roman sun god. He was no Christian.
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Gee, I wonder what all the Bishops were doing, gathered together that summer of 325.
The bidding of the roman pontifex maximus of course. Councils that did not meet under his bidding surprisingly had starkly different conclusions, and one excommunicated Athanasius.
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