[Bean Counter]

Hello All,

I have a question about salvation from the MAD position.

I'm trying to understand what impact did the cross have towards salvation for the Jews who were keeping the covenant of circumcision and accepted Christ? How were the apostles and the Jews saved under the gospel of the circumcision after the cross?

We in the Body are saved by grace through faith. They were still zealous for the law and keeping the law. Were they saved by keeping the law?

Was it the same for them before and after the cross? Were they saved by faith after the cross but still had to keep the law?

Thanks,
Bean

[Angel4Truth]

Hi,

Romans 10:10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 10; 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galations 3:28 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Bean Counter]

Thanks A4Truth. But I'm not looking to debate whether MAD is true or false. I'm looking for an answer from the MAD perspective.

Granted, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" but the Apostles were still keeping the law, many were zealous for the law, and they asked Paul to keep the law while in Jerusalem.

So from the understanding of MAD, how did the cross effect the mode of salvation for those under the gospel of the circumcision?

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Hello All,

I have a question about salvation from the MAD position.

There is no MAD position for it. What the Bible says is the position. MAD is Mid Acts Dispensation, refering to Paul's ministry. That is done because man will not recognize his authority.

I'm trying to understand what impact did the cross have towards salvation for the Jews who were keeping the covenant of circumcision and accepted Christ?

You will find that with the prophets and red letters.

[2COR12:9]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Granted, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" but the Apostles were still keeping the law, many were zealous for the law, and they asked Paul to keep the law while in Jerusalem.

Galatians 2:11-16 (NASB)

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face,
because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming
of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles;
but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof,
fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews
joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas
was carried away by their hypocrisy.
But when I saw that they were not straightforward
about the truth of the gospel,
I said to Cephas in the presence of all,
“If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews,
how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
nevertheless knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the Law
but through faith in Christ Jesus,
even we have believed in Christ Jesus,
so that we may be justified by faith in Christ
and not by the works of the Law;
since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Thanks A4Truth. But I'm not looking to debate whether MAD is true or false. I'm looking for an answer from the MAD perspective.

Granted, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" but the Apostles were still keeping the law, many were zealous for the law, and they asked Paul to keep the law while in Jerusalem.

So from the understanding of MAD, how did the cross effect the mode of salvation for those under the gospel of the circumcision?

Her verses show that MAD is wrong. I also am trying to understand the confusing, unbiblical principles of MAD.

Nick is wrong to assume MAD is the Bible. We do not disagree about Paul, but they must show why Jew/Gentile are not one in Christ based on the cross before Paul.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Nick M

There is no MAD position for it. What the Bible says is the position....You will find that with the prophets and red letters.

In other words, Nick says salvation is what the Bible says it is for Jews.

Originally Posted by godrulz

Nick is wrong to assume MAD is the Bible.

Notice the subtil misdirection? I truly delight in knowing your terror will come.

Originally Posted by godrulz

they must show why Jew/Gentile are not one in Christ based on the cross before Paul.

Notice the subtil misdirection? Lets see what Legion says from another point of view, allowing him to oppose the gospel of grace. Here he says Jew/Gentile are one from the cross. Before Paul. No transition, the cross is the change (he doesn't believe that either)

Originally Posted by godrulz

THe ministry pattern of Jesus, early church, Paul was to Jew first and to go where the people are. The transition to being Apostle to the Gentiles did not happen overnight nor was it exclusive in light of Jn. 3:16 (world, all unregenerate men, not just the Jew). Acts shows transition and it is also selective history.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Nick M

There is no MAD position for it. What the Bible says is the position. MAD is Mid Acts Dispensation, refering to Paul's ministry. That is done because man will not recognize his authority.

Nick,

I know what MAD is. I used the term so I could specify who I wanted a response from. If I just asked how the cross affected salvation for the Jews everyone would have answered. But I would like an answer from someone who understands MAD.

Originally Posted by Nick M

You will find that with the prophets and red letters.

So you are implying that the cross had no effect on the mode of salvation for the Jews under the gospel of circumcision after the cross. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Bean

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by godrulz

Her verses show that MAD is wrong. I also am trying to understand the confusing, unbiblical principles of MAD.

Hi Godrulz,

If you believe MAD is incorrect how do you deal with the following:

- The doctrinal disunity in Acts
- The apostles keeping the law and asking Paul to keep the law while in Jerusalem
- The mystery that had never before been revealed
- The gospel of the circumcision and uncircumcision in Galatians

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

(And sorry Angel4Truth. It appears I have turned this thread into a debate about MAD )

Bean

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by 2COR12:9

Galatians 2:11-16 (NASB)

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face,
because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming
of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles;
but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof,
fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews
joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas
was carried away by their hypocrisy.
But when I saw that they were not straightforward
about the truth of the gospel,
I said to Cephas in the presence of all,
“If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews,
how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
nevertheless knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the Law
but through faith in Christ Jesus,
even we have believed in Christ Jesus,
so that we may be justified by faith in Christ
and not by the works of the Law;
since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

*
So we learn from this that Cephas lived as a Gentile, not a Jew and that he did NOT believe that man is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Christ Jesus.

Peter KNEW this but he still [for fear of the Jews] played the hypocrite and withdrew from the Gentiles thereby setting up a division among the church between Jew and Gentile which DID not then and which DOES not now exist.

No wonder Paul was hopping mad.

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Hello All,

I have a question about salvation from the MAD position.

I'm trying to understand what impact did the cross have towards salvation for the Jews who were keeping the covenant of circumcision and accepted Christ? How were the apostles and the Jews saved under the gospel of the circumcision after the cross?

We in the Body are saved by grace through faith. They were still zealous for the law and keeping the law. Were they saved by keeping the law?

Was it the same for them before and after the cross? Were they saved by faith after the cross but still had to keep the law?

Thanks,
Bean

Salvation comes from doing Romans 10:9-10

Salvation is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation is simply that, salvation.

Salvation is not human perfection.

Salvation does not guarantee that the person rises up to live/work out that salvation.

God not only wants that people be saved, but to come to the knowledge of the truth as well, I Timothy 2:4

If someone decides to live under the law, when God's word tells us we are no longer under the law, then they are ignoring coming to the knowledge of the truth.

We are supposed to raise our thinking to the level of God's word once and because we have been given the gift of salvation. There are those who do not, some who do a little and some who do it a lot.

Paul changed his thinking tremendously, He is a great example of becoming saved and then doing something with it

oatmeal

[Totton Linnet]

The Jews abided by the Jewish laws because they were the civil laws and we must obey the civil law not in order to be saved but in order to be law abiding citizens...as did Paul incidently.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

So you are implying that the cross had no effect on the mode of salvation for the Jews under the gospel of circumcision after the cross. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Bean

I didn't imply anything. In fact, I didn't even give close to an actual answer via scripture. I said go read what the prophets say, and the Lord Jesus Christ said. There are red letters after the resurrection in Acts if you didn't know that. As well as the gospels.

If fact, why don't you go get the red letters, paste them here, and we will talk about it.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Nick M

I didn't imply anything. In fact, I didn't even give close to an actual answer via scripture. I said go read what the prophets say, and the Lord Jesus Christ said. There are red letters after the resurrection in Acts if you didn't know that. As well as the gospels.

If fact, why don't you go get the red letters, paste them here, and we will talk about it.

Maybe the red letters you want to talk about after the resurrection is Christ telling his disciples to go and preach all I have commanded you. I really don't want to copy and paste the whole Bible in order to get a direct answer.

So, what impact did the cross have towards salvation for the Jews who were keeping the covenant of circumcision and accepted Christ? How were the apostles and the Jews saved under the gospel of the circumcision after the cross? Was it the same for them before and after the cross?

Thanks,
Bean

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Salvation comes from doing Romans 10:9-10

Salvation is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation is simply that, salvation.

Salvation is not human perfection.

Salvation does not guarantee that the person rises up to live/work out that salvation.

God not only wants that people be saved, but to come to the knowledge of the truth as well, I Timothy 2:4

If someone decides to live under the law, when God's word tells us we are no longer under the law, then they are ignoring coming to the knowledge of the truth.

We are supposed to raise our thinking to the level of God's word once and because we have been given the gift of salvation. There are those who do not, some who do a little and some who do it a lot.

Paul changed his thinking tremendously, He is a great example of becoming saved and then doing something with it

oatmeal

This does not answer my question from the MAD perspective.