toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?
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toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell? -
August 10th, 2012, 02:20 PM
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 10th, 2012 02:21 PM
toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?
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Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
Isaiah 1:17
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August 10th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Possibly.
Romans 9 (pretty much all of it)
15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
“We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.
Have you ever actually read Romans 9? God is speaking about Israel's rejection of Him which has caused Him to turn to the gentiles and He is explaining... that it's His right to put Israel's blessing on hold and turn to the gentiles. None of this has anything at all to do with individuals and salvation. In fact a large portion of the book of Romans is on that exact same topic.
It's a great read. Too bad more folks don't actually read it.
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Slogan/motto:
Blah, waffle, moan, grumble etc....
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August 10th, 2012, 04:39 PM
If "hell" is the grave then yes, pretty much everyone ends up in it. If it's some place/realm of eternal unbearable suffering then you can *thank* dogma for it. The idea that a loving God would create such a place/condition, life and then determine who would interminably suffer is atrocious. In fact the whole notion of eternal suffering is....
Slogan/motto:
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
Isaiah 1:17
Reputation:
August 10th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
Have you ever actually read Romans 9? God is speaking about Israel's rejection of Him which has caused Him to turn to the gentiles and He is explaining... that it's His right to put Israel's blessing on hold and turn to the gentiles. None of this has anything at all to do with individuals and salvation. In fact a large portion of the book of Romans is on that exact same topic.
It's a great read. Too bad more folks don't actually read it.
Um, have YOU read it with an open mind to see what the text is actually saying? Indeed part of the context is Israel in general but there's a specific discussion of Jacob vs. Esau as an example of *gasp* election.
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Esau was, by any objective measure of the culture at the time the "better" of the two brothers, yet God chose Jacob.
God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." That's collective as well as individual, and we have to live with that.
“We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.
Um, have YOU read it with an open mind to see what the text is actually saying? Indeed part of the context is Israel in general but there's a specific discussion of Jacob vs. Esau as an example of *gasp* election.
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Esau was, by any objective measure of the culture at the time the "better" of the two brothers, yet God chose Jacob.
God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." That's collective as well as individual, and we have to live with that.
See the next passage:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]
Slogan/motto:
The sky is always up, it is never down!!
Reputation:
August 10th, 2012, 05:31 PM
No one has been "predestined" to be saved. No one is predestined to Hell. God created all of mankind with freewill. Some will choose Christ as Lord and Savior, most will not according to Scripture. There is no, "elect" who were chosen before
the foundation of the world to be saved and the rest to be thrown into Hell...
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August 10th, 2012, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe
No one has been "predestined" to be saved. No one is predestined to Hell. God created all of mankind with freewill. Some will choose Christ as Lord and Savior, most will not according to Scripture. There is no, "elect" who were chosen before
the foundation of the world to be saved and the rest to be thrown into Hell...
Depends how you define "choose" & also "freewill". If it were as obvious as escaping a visibly burning building then most occupants would either flee or those outside wouldn't enter (except for rescue purposes). It seems totally simplistic thinking to make this an issue where people either 'choose' Heaven or whichever take on hell....
Have you ever actually read Romans 9? God is speaking about Israel's rejection of Him which has caused Him to turn to the gentiles and He is explaining... that it's His right to put Israel's blessing on hold and turn to the gentiles. None of this has anything at all to do with individuals and salvation. In fact a large portion of the book of Romans is on that exact same topic.
It's a great read. Too bad more folks don't actually read it.
Slogan/motto:
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
Isaiah 1:17
Reputation:
August 10th, 2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
See the next passage:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]
And? Predestination does not disqualify seeking or believing.
Matthew 22:
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Ephesians 1:
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
“We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
The Body of Christ was predetermined... corporately. Not individually.
If people were either predetermined to go to heaven or go to hell prior to their birth there would be no point in the gospel, no point in God's word at all. Those that would be saved... would be saved. Those that are destined to hell would be destined to hell. No sense in preaching the gospel or being compelled to follow God based on His deeds, word, and love.
The Bible paints a much different picture. A picture about men having the ability to choose to be with Him or not.
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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