[Livelystone]

Is heaven further away than the furthest star such as most of us were taught as children?

Or does heaven exist all around and in us?

Jesus said he was in heaven while he was standing on earth

Jh.3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Paul in the following verse seems to agree that to ascend into heaven is to bring Christ down from heaven to us.

Ro.10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)


Stephen was able to see into heaven while he was on earth, and for saying that he could see into heaven where Jesus was at the right hand of God, the religious right of his day killed him.

Acts 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, [b]Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.[/B


Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


It is hard to break with tradition, but the Bible does not teach that God and Jesus are in some far-off place inaccessible until we die. Tradition teaches that when Jesus said “I go to prepare a place” meant that Jesus had to go remodel heaven because with all the foreknowledge of God he made a mistake when he made heaven and it was not made to accommodate us, therefore Jesus had to go make some changes.

For those who were willing to ascend unto heaven now by bringing Christ down into us understand that when Jesus said he was going to go prepare a place where the father and son can abide together, he has come into our hearts to prepare for the time when the fullness of the Holy Spirit of God can exist in man.

People have the choice to make. They can become like Abraham and the other founding fathers, prophets, and apostles spoken of as mansions of praise who continue to worship God even though they have long left this earth, or they can relegate themselves to remaining as simple one room bungalows of praise content to wait until they die to go to heaven.

Doug

[Sealeaf]

There is some truth to this idea. If you have personally met a very holy person you know that they are filled with Joy and inexplicable peace, even as they live in the world.

[This Charming Manc]

according to belinda its a place on earth

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Sealeaf

There is some truth to this idea. If you have personally met a very holy person you know that they are filled with Joy and inexplicable peace, even as they live in the world.

When I 1st read your post I thought “why is it only some truth” when I realized that “some truth” equates with “some of the time”

It is easy for most Christians to take part of the heavenly realm during the times of praise and worship most often associated with Sunday mornings. On the other hand Monday through Saturday dealing with the things of the world and how our emotions are affected often causes people to depart the living God and descend into places where our father would prefer we not go to.

[Sealeaf]

The reason I say "some truth' is that I am only willing to give qualified support to your idea without further explanation. But I have met a holy man and have seen the change wrought in him by his holiness

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Sealeaf

The reason I say "some truth' is that I am only willing to give qualified support to your idea without further explanation. But I have met a holy man and have seen the change wrought in him by his holiness

Fair enough and when you care to share I would like to hear about this person you have met.

Coming back to heaven being within and around us, it is pretty easy to allow for that to exist within Jesus Christ who said when you see me you see the father. However, I think before we can actually apprehended this for ourselves we need a more earthly example than the son of God himself.

IMO the apostles fill that bill quite well.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them

When we look at the definition for the word "shadow" not much is revealed however, when we look at the other times that the word for “overshadow” is used, we see it refers to the power and presence of God.

While this is an example of something good coming from the presence and power of God we can see the flip side when the couple who lied to Peter about what they had sold their house for, and this same power and presence of holiness killed them.

I don't think it is necessary for any of us to need proof to believe that the apostles walked in a realm of holiness that has not been seen on earth since the death of the last apostle. What we need is to be able to do is apprehend the difference between them and us.

Paul gives some clues here and there such as when he said their conversation was in heaven, and how they (speaking only of the apostles and those who followed in their footsteps such as Timothy) had the mind of Christ that is the mind of God.

The translation for the word used when they said their conversation was in heaven identified their citizenship as being from heaven in the same manner as Jesus said he was in heaven while standing on earth.

It stands to reason that if the kingdom of God can be on earth then so can the kingdoms ruled by Satan appear on earth. This is exactly what we have when the Bible speaks of Satan taking Jesus up onto a high place where they could view all the kingdoms of the world that were given to Satan. Even within the limited proximity of the known world the Bible speaks of, there is no physical place where all the known different kingdoms serving Satan could be viewed from at the same time. Therefore, what Satan was pointing out to Jesus was not physical kingdoms but were the fallen spirits and souls of mankind all given to him because of the fall in the garden.

Bringing mankind back under the dominion of God and away from the power of Satan is the hope and purpose of bringing heaven to earth.

When that happens we will see the same miracles that the 1st century church witnessed because the members of those churches being under the leadership of the apostles were effectively in heaven while on earth. Unfortunately, examples of this are extremely rare today because ever since the last apostle was taken out of the way, other than the name of Jesus the truth went with them.

This is why I have always said when the truth (a.k.a. the mind of Christ) return to the church so will the same miracles done by the 1st century church be seen on earth again.

[Bradley D]

Wherever heaven is it requires a spiritual body to get there.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44).

[Apple7]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

It stands to reason that if the kingdom of God can be on earth then so can the kingdoms ruled by Satan appear on earth. This is exactly what we have when the Bible speaks of Satan taking Jesus up onto a high place where they could view all the kingdoms of the world that were given to Satan. Even within the limited proximity of the known world the Bible speaks of, there is no physical place where all the known different kingdoms serving Satan could be viewed from at the same time. Therefore, what Satan was pointing out to Jesus was not physical kingdoms but were the fallen spirits and souls of mankind all given to him because of the fall in the garden.

Bringing mankind back under the dominion of God and away from the power of Satan is the hope and purpose of bringing heaven to earth.

When that happens we will see the same miracles that the 1st century church witnessed because the members of those churches being under the leadership of the apostles were effectively in heaven while on earth. Unfortunately, examples of this are extremely rare today because ever since the last apostle was taken out of the way, other than the name of Jesus the truth went with them.

This is why I have always said when the truth (a.k.a. the mind of Christ) return to the church so will the same miracles done by the 1st century church be seen on earth again.

Your position appears to be one of Heaven on Earth...if so, how do you reconcile this with scripture speaking of a New Heavens and New Earth replacing the old ones...?

Thanks...

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Apple7

Your position appears to be one of Heaven on Earth...if so, how do you reconcile this with scripture speaking of a New Heavens and New Earth replacing the old ones...?

Thanks...

Fair question

The short answer would be to point to the apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 when he speaks of terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies. The spirit and soul are celestial bodies that live within a terrestrial a.k.a. physical body. The spirit is the source of life in a person and the soul is a personification of a given spirit within a particular body.

All of mankind is born “in Adam” the name given the spirit of man who has a soul taken from his flesh, and the soul is where the mind exist.

This is a summary of what came from the fall and has been the makeup of every person from the time of their birth.

However, while mankind has started with an earthly spirit and soul that even though they are celestial bodies living within a terrestrial body, they are earthly in their origin. Paul agrees with this in the following verse.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

To try and keep this post from getting too long I asked you to consider the opposite being when someone is born again from the spirit from above that is Christ the seed in us, that from it we may (our hope of glory) arrive at the point when we bear the image of the heavenly.

We start off with only a Holy Spirit from above, but if we continue to grow in grace and truth from above, instead of having a soul (with the mind) that comes from the flesh of man, we may apprehend the mind a.k.a. soul of Christ that is not from this Earth but is from above.

At that time a person is experiencing the new heavens and new earth even though they are still on this earth. This is what Stephen and other Apostles obtained who had experiences seeing into and being "in heaven" while still on earth

Hard for me to condense into a reasonable length, a summary of what has taken me over 200 pages to write in a book with all of the proper support and evidence.

Doug

[Apple7]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Fair question

The short answer would be to point to the apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 when he speaks of terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies. The spirit and soul are celestial bodies that live within a terrestrial a.k.a. physical body. The spirit is the source of life in a person and the soul is a personification of a given spirit within a particular body.

All of mankind is born “in Adam” the name given the spirit of man who has a soul taken from his flesh, and the soul is where the mind exist.

This is a summary of what came from the fall and has been the makeup of every person from the time of their birth.

However, while mankind has started with an earthly spirit and soul that even though they are celestial bodies living within a terrestrial body, they are earthly in their origin. Paul agrees with this in the following verse.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

To try and keep this post from getting too long I asked you to consider the opposite being when someone is born again from the spirit from above that is Christ the seed in us, that from it we may (our hope of glory) arrive at the point when we bear the image of the heavenly.

We start off with only a Holy Spirit from above, but if we continue to grow in grace and truth from above, instead of having a soul (with the mind) that comes from the flesh of man, we may apprehend the mind a.k.a. soul of Christ that is not from this Earth but is from above.

At that time a person is experiencing the new heavens and new earth even though they are still on this earth. This is what Stephen and other Apostles obtained who had experiences seeing into and being "in heaven" while still on earth

Hard for me to condense into a reasonable length, a summary of what has taken me over 200 pages to write in a book with all of the proper support and evidence.

Doug

Hey Doug,

Unless I missed it, your reply does not seem to address how it is that the Biblical Heaven is described as a physical geography complete with dimensions, colors, sights, sounds, tastes, food, drink, shade, precious metals/stones and directions - which replaces the physical earth and heavens which we now know.

How can this physical description of Heaven be accessable to people living on earth (without the aid of the Spirit) when it is a future event which replaces the old earth and heavens....?

Do you have a specific page in your book which deals with this...thanks!

[Apple7]

Doug,

On pages 7 & 8 of your book, you mention having an ‘out-of-body experience’ in which you witnessed God’s judgment at the resurrection of the dead – in which you, yourself, were a participant.

The troubling part of this is that not only does the Judgment of the dead take place outside of Heaven, but this event is also referred to as the Second Resurrection (i.e. the Second Death!).

A careful study of the Holy Bible (especially Revelation) informs the reader that the one’s going to Heaven are not judged, but, in fact, are part of the First Resurrection!

The very fact that you were a participant to witness the Judgment in the first place means that you will be suffering the Second Death and never make it into Heaven – as your name was not written in Jesus’ Book of Life!

The First Resurrection is always listed first with respect to the Second Resurrection – even in your very own example, on page 7, you skipped over the preceding verses in Revelation chapter 20 detailing the First Resurrection, and then stated that you were part of the Second Death!

Doug…you have it all entirely wrong!!!

Your vision was not one of God accepting you – but one of rejecting you!

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Apple7

Doug,

On pages 7 & 8 of your book, you mention having an ‘out-of-body experience’ in which you witnessed God’s judgment at the resurrection of the dead – in which you, yourself, were a participant.

The troubling part of this is that not only does the Judgment of the dead take place outside of Heaven, but this event is also referred to as the Second Resurrection (i.e. the Second Death!).

A careful study of the Holy Bible (especially Revelation) informs the reader that the one’s going to Heaven are not judged, but, in fact, are part of the First Resurrection!

The very fact that you were a participant to witness the Judgment in the first place means that you will be suffering the Second Death and never make it into Heaven – as your name was not written in Jesus’ Book of Life!

The First Resurrection is always listed first with respect to the Second Resurrection – even in your very own example, on page 7, you skipped over the preceding verses in Revelation chapter 20 detailing the First Resurrection, and then stated that you were part of the Second Death!

Doug…you have it all entirely wrong!!!

Your vision was not one of God accepting you – but one of rejecting you!

Hello Apple

You'd be better off reading pages 3 and 4 as far as the details about my accident and when I was declared dead and then attended the resurrection of the dead. You are correct about it being the 2nd resurrection and that is my point!

Everyone at the end of their natural life is going to witness something very similar as I did because all are judged for those things he did while on earth. The fact it is a 2nd resurrection is because there is a 1st resurrection available for people in this life.

Maybe you were born righteous and not in need of a resurrection in this life but some people like myself who walked on the dark side alongside evil for many years, have through Jesus Christ been given a way to leave their past behind.

Do you not think that Paul came to exist after he was resurrected from being Saul?

Don't be so quick to condemn someone before you know the realm they have walked in. The apostle John saw the same things I did (albeit much more) and like me he never went anywhere.

Regarding your dimensions for heaven, are you referring to the city of new Jerusalem seen coming down from heaven to earth? Is this not what Jesus taught us to pray for in “thy kingdom come”?

Do you think Jesus would have us pray for something that was not available to us?

Your responses are very much like the minister who when he heard about my dying father being raised from the dead said that Satan was working through me. However, that is what he and other elders are supposed to be able to witness along with healing the sick, and it is to their shame that someone such as myself has witnessed those things but they have not (and will not until they learn to worship in truth).

Doug

[Apple7]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Hello Apple

You'd be better off reading pages 3 and 4 as far as the details about my accident and when I was declared dead and then attended the resurrection of the dead. You are correct about it being the 2nd resurrection and that is my point!

Hi Doug,

If you were a participant in the 2nd Resurrection (as you claim in your book), then that means that God rejected you.

Why then, do you claim that you were 'acceptable' to God, and your name was written in Jesus' Book of Life (page 8) when only the one's going to hell are the one's judged?

You conflict with the very scripture that you took out of context...

Everyone at the end of their natural life is going to witness something very similar as I did because all are judged for those things he did while on earth. The fact it is a 2nd resurrection is because there is a 1st resurrection available for people in this life.

People going to Heaven die once.

People going to hell die twice.

The Second Resurrection is also called the Second Death, Doug..and if you think that you are part of the Second Resurrection....well...then you know where you are headed...yes?

Maybe you were born righteous and not in need of a resurrection in this life but some people like myself who walked on the dark side alongside evil for many years, have through Jesus Christ been given a way to leave their past behind.

Do you not think that Paul came to exist after he was resurrected from being Saul?

Don't be so quick to condemn someone before you know the realm they have walked in. The apostle John saw the same things I did (albeit much more) and like me he never went anywhere.

No offence...but on page 6 you mentioned that you did drugs for 30 years....do you think that doing drugs for 3 decades had no long-term impact on your reasoning ability?

Regarding your dimensions for heaven, are you referring to the city of new Jerusalem seen coming down from heaven to earth? Is this not what Jesus taught us to pray for in “thy kingdom come”?

Do you think Jesus would have us pray for something that was not available to us?

A future event replacing the existing earth and heavens....how does this fit with your Heaven on earth paradigm?

Your responses are very much like the minister who when he heard about my dying father being raised from the dead said that Satan was working through me. However, that is what he and other elders are supposed to be able to witness along with healing the sick, and it is to their shame that someone such as myself has witnessed those things but they have not (and will not until they learn to worship in truth).

Doug

Actually, my responses are fully rooted in scripture, Doug.

Unlike you, I did not lay-waste to my brains cells for 3 decades....

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Is heaven further away than the furthest star such as most of us were taught as children?

Or does heaven exist all around and in us?

Jesus said he was in heaven while he was standing on earth

Jh.3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Paul in the following verse seems to agree that to ascend into heaven is to bring Christ down from heaven to us.

Ro.10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)


Stephen was able to see into heaven while he was on earth, and for saying that he could see into heaven where Jesus was at the right hand of God, the religious right of his day killed him.

Acts 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, [b]Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.[/B


Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


It is hard to break with tradition, but the Bible does not teach that God and Jesus are in some far-off place inaccessible until we die. Tradition teaches that when Jesus said “I go to prepare a place” meant that Jesus had to go remodel heaven because with all the foreknowledge of God he made a mistake when he made heaven and it was not made to accommodate us, therefore Jesus had to go make some changes.

For those who were willing to ascend unto heaven now by bringing Christ down into us understand that when Jesus said he was going to go prepare a place where the father and son can abide together, he has come into our hearts to prepare for the time when the fullness of the Holy Spirit of God can exist in man.

People have the choice to make. They can become like Abraham and the other founding fathers, prophets, and apostles spoken of as mansions of praise who continue to worship God even though they have long left this earth, or they can relegate themselves to remaining as simple one room bungalows of praise content to wait until they die to go to heaven.

Doug

good question.

Consider the following:

Genesis 1:1

God created the heaven and the earth.

What did he create?

1. heaven

2. the earth

What about space? isn't that part of God's creation? yes,

He created the heaven and the earth.

We know we live on the earth.

Genesis 1:20

Heaven, the firmament is any place that is not the earth, any place above the earth, including the air the birds fly in.

oatmeal

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Apple7

Hi Doug,

If you were a participant in the 2nd Resurrection (as you claim in your book), then that means that God rejected you.

Why then, do you claim that you were 'acceptable' to God, and your name was written in Jesus' Book of Life (page 8) when only the one's going to hell are the one's judged?

You conflict with the very scripture that you took out of context...


People going to Heaven die once.

People going to hell die twice.

The Second Resurrection is also called the Second Death, Doug..and if you think that you are part of the Second Resurrection....well...then you know where you are headed...yes?


No offence...but on page 6 you mentioned that you did drugs for 30 years....do you think that doing drugs for 3 decades had no long-term impact on your reasoning ability?



A future event replacing the existing earth and heavens....how does this fit with your Heaven on earth paradigm?

Actually, my responses are fully rooted in scripture, Doug.

Unlike you, I did not lay-waste to my brains cells for 3 decades....

Hey Apple

The drugs I did for 30 years was commercial and not personal use. The only personal use that became a significant problem with me was after the accident because of continued use of pain medication. At the time of my accident there were absolutely no drugs in my system whatsoever, after all you can be sure after being involved in a major accident the hospital checked me very closely for any drugs in my system. If there had been any I would have been charged accordingly.

Get it?

You are assuming an opinion that those who appear at the great white judgment all go to hell. However what they say about making an assumption and what they say about opinions are both being fulfilled by you.

Get it?

Like most people who follow the standard evangelical doctrinal teaching you do not know your left hand from your right hand. This is why you and the church you go to cannot do anything to help the sick even though the Bible specifically says that the Holy Spirit upon the hearing of faith amongst Christians should be working miracles among you.

Unfortunately, for you and people like you, your faith is what you believe and if you do not believe in the truth you are only of "little faith," and that is why there are no miracles amongst you and those who believe like you do.

On the other hand those who learn to worship in spirit and truth do witness miracles.

As the Scriptures say you shall know them by their fruit and you have no fruit.

However repentance and a change in knowledge could go a long way to improving your faith

Doug