[Untellectual]

It has entered into my discussion and thoughts now the idea that there is a difference between a covenant and a law or law code (code of law).

If we examine the Torah, the first five books of Moses (which are the first five books of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles), we find two things that are interesting to me on the surface, justifiying a closer or deeper look for anyone wanting to understand.

1) Moses is recorded of as having died (Deuteronomy 34:5, 7). This means that Moses did not write all of the books (what is called by many, the "Torah") that many people attribute to him as the author.

2) The Torah is the first section of three in the TaNaKh (the Torah (Law), the Nevi'im (Prophets), and the Ketuvi'im (Writings) are the scriptures that many Christians call the "Old Testament"). Now, it can be noted that the words "Old Testament" and "Old Covenant" are generally used interchangeably. In Genesis, the first book of the Bible, we do see mention of God's name, YHVH, but that name was not given to Israel until the time of Moses (Exodus 6:3), during whose lifetime God made a covenant with Israel (the covenant called "old" because that in Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:31) we hear tell of the coming of a "new" covenant). All this to say that the Old Covenant is different from the Law (Torah), in that even if we say the first five books of the Bible are the Law of Moses, Genesis (which is deemed a part of this Law (the Torah)) doesn't even make mention of this Law (for that we have to read on to the other of the five books, perhaps starting with the second book called Exodus (the exodus of Israel from Egypt)).

So then, what appears to be, is not what actually is in reality. We have labeled or categorized these books and the covenants of the Bible, without really knowing them first. At least, that is how many of us have been taught what we believe to be the truth. And there is truth to be had, but some of it is not had in our first understandings.

The reason for this thread, is to discuss the difference and/or relationship between "the book of the law", and "the book of the covenant". Both are spoken of in the Torah (the word "torah" means "instruction"). And at least one of these, "this book of the law", is spoken of outside the Torah in the strict sense of the first five books (in Joshua 1:8, is what I know).

It is difficult to categorize the law. Some see ceremonial, and some see moral. Some even see judicial or civil.

Originally Posted by Untellectual

In other news, the law is comprised of moral law, ceremonial law, and judicial/civil law.

See: What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament?

If we look at the words in the Torah itself (looking for words that might be in reference to law), we can see "judgments", "statutes", "ordinances" (and am I forgetting any)?

The question is, "Is God's Covenant with Israel His Law?"

Is this just about the Ten Commandments? Is this about more than the Ten Commandments? And, are the Ten Commandments included? Some say the Ten Commandments are God's moral law.

Exodus 17:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this [for] a memorial in the book and recount [it] in the hearing of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

Exodus 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient."

Exodus 32:32 "Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Numbers 5:23 'Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape [them] off into the bitter water.

Deuteronomy 17:18 "Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from [the one] before the priests, the Levites.

Deuteronomy 28:58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD,

Deuteronomy 28:61 "Also every sickness and every plague, which [is] not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Deuteronomy 29:20 "The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven.

Deuteronomy 29:21 "And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,

Deuteronomy 29:27 'Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against this land, to bring on it every curse that is written in this book.

Deuteronomy 30:10 "if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, [and] if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

[Untellectual]

Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

Deuteronomy 31:25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying:

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 "And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the LORD had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Deuteronomy 28:58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD,

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

"this Book of the Law" was put beside the ark of the covenant.

Deuteronomy 31:9 So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.

[Untellectual]

Hebrews 9:4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which [were] the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

[Untellectual]

Exodus 31:6 "And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you:

Exodus 31:7 "the tabernacle of meeting, the ark of the Testimony and the mercy seat that [is] on it, and all the furniture of the tabernacle--

Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony [were] in his hand. The tablets [were] written on both sides; on the one [side] and on the other they were written.

Exodus 32:16 Now the tablets [were] the work of God, and the writing [was] the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

(Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4)

1 Kings 8:9 Nothing [was] in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made [a covenant] with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Ketuvi'im (Writings)

I may have mis-spelled this word.

[seekinganswers]

If there is no mention of the law in Genesis, as you claim, what do you make of Genesis 17, Untellectual?

Peace,
Michael

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by seekinganswers

If there is no mention of the law in Genesis, as you claim, what do you make of Genesis 17, Untellectual?

Peace,
Michael

Do you mean in that Abraham and circumcision are spoken of?

For, .

Galatians 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

[Untellectual]

Genesis 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

Genesis 26:4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

[seekinganswers]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Do you mean in that Abraham and circumcision are spoken of?

For, .

Galatians 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Yet Abraham and his seed come under God's commandments through circumcision:

Originally Posted by Genesis 17:10-14

This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.

This is covenant language (not just the language of the promise from chapter 12). There is a requirement enjoined on Abraham and his seed. They must keep the covenant (and the circumcision was a sign of that which was to come later, i.e. the Mosaic covenant at Sinai). The promise still comes beforehand, but the covenant is very much mentioned in Genesis.

As far as Paul's comments on circumcisions are concerned, he is pointing out the fact that many who bore the mark of circumcision still perished under the law. Circumcision in that sense cannot save you (because if you are circumcised and disobey the law, than your circumcision doesn't mean very much).

Peace,
Michael

[Untellectual]

It is true that there was circumcision before the Law of Moses, from the time of Abraham.

God made a covenant with Abraham (and his household).

Abraham was the father of Isaac, the son God promised to him.

Isaac was the father of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.

Later, in the exodus from Egypt, God made a covenant with the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses.

There are many verses about God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Here are some of them.

Descendants:

Abram -> Abraham

Genesis 12:7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.

Genesis 13:15 for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

Genesis 13:16 "I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

Genesis 15:13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.

Genesis 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Genesis 16:10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

Genesis 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

Genesis 17:10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 21:12 But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.

Genesis 24:7 "The LORD, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my birth, and who spoke to me and who swore to me, saying, 'To your descendants I will give this land,' He will send His angel before you, and you will take a wife for my son from there.

Isaac

Genesis 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

Genesis 26:3 "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.

Genesis 26:4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

Genesis 26:24 The LORD appeared to him the same night and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham; Do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you, and multiply your descendants, For the sake of My servant Abraham."

Jacob -> Israel

Genesis 28:4 "May He also give you the blessing of Abraham, to you and to your descendants with you, that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham."

Genesis 28:13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants.

Genesis 28:14 "Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 28:15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."

Genesis 32:12 "For You said, 'I will surely prosper you and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which is too great to be numbered.'"

Genesis 35:12 "The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, And I will give the land to your descendants after you."

Genesis 46:6 They took their livestock and their property, which they had acquired in the land of Canaan, and came to Egypt, Jacob and all his descendants with him:

Genesis 46:7 his sons and his grandsons with him, his daughters and his granddaughters, and all his descendants he brought with him to Egypt.

Genesis 48:3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,

Genesis 48:4 and He said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a company of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you for an everlasting possession.'

[Untellectual]

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

Romans 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Romans 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Romans 4:18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."

Romans 4:19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;

Romans 4:20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

Romans 4:21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

Romans 4:22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Romans 4:23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,

Romans 4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

Romans 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

[Untellectual]

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Romans 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

[Untellectual]

A thought from feedback regarding this thread..

Is the law or laws the result of or even the terms of a/the covenant?