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Can God forgive our sins? -
August 19th, 2012, 12:58 PM
I have 'met' a number of Christians here who insist that the cosmos is put together in such a way that God simply cannot forgive our sins. He can help us by means of Grace, through Jesus- but forgiving per se doesn't work.
Do I understand this viewpoint correctly?
I want to demonstrate, from the New Testament as well as the Old, that God can and does forgive our sins. But first I want to make sure that I understand this viewpoint correctly.
Slogan/motto:
Hope sees the invisible, achieves the impossible.
Reputation:
August 19th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Well, I don't think any Christian would deny that God (and only God) can forgive sins whenever it suits him to. Jesus' passion basically means it not a matter anymore of whether or not it suits God. He will always forgive us now if we honestly regret what we did and desire forgiveness through Jesus.
It's also that even though nothing can stop God from forgiving anyone, it's not actually made right, we aren't actually redeemed without some sacrifice (we don't believe God can just forget that it ever happened.) Hence (in part) the sacrifices required by the law of Moses. One could contend all of that ought to have been unnecessary as well if God could always simply forgive those who have seen the error of their ways.
Yes, and He has if we are one of those chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Thank you for your thought provoking and sincere question, chair. This is really beyond my skill set, and I regret I'm short of time to investigate this further, though the spirit is willing. Agreed, I would not presume God couldn't or wouldn't forgive, or do anything He chooses; excpept tell a lie, which includes His not falling back on any promise, even to murderers. Nonetheless, Godly 'forgiveness' appears to be a matter of extending grace, in measure typically more merciful than deserved as in Genesis 4:15, and as in Ezra 9:13; (among other places); but not without punishment entirely, in those cases. Almighty God is merciful, indeed.
I am truly humbled by this prayer of Ezra which includes: Ezra 9:6, Ezra 9:7, Ezra 9:8. Chair, take a look at Ezra 9 if you will, and note the trespasses in Ezra 9:1 and Ezra 9:2. Pretty serious. Great chapter! God's complete grace, beyond interim punishment, is delineated in Ezra 9:8 as being preserved in a remnant to escape those trespasses, and to give us a nail in his holy place. As Christian, and speaking only for myself, I perceive complete grace as total forgiveness: beyond punishment, but not without His expectations. Furthermore, this complete grace (total forgiveness) was achieved through this remnant of God's "holy seed" (Ezra 9:2). Therefore, as Christian: Jesus was ultimately the end of this remnnant of this Holy seed (the end of the 77 generations prophesied by the murderer Lamech in Genesis 4:24, among other places the Messiah is prophesied).
Jesus was without spot or blemish, and I have much to say on this another time, perhaps. Jesus was the end of the remnant, and final and ultimate sacrifice of His perfect human flesh (Matthew 26:26) and blood, (Matthew 26:27, Matthew 26:28) for the remission of sin. This remission achieved God's complete forgiveness, the remission of sin: faith fulfilled (Hebrews 12:1, Hebrews 12:2).
Do Jews perceive their awaited Messiah to also be a sacrifice?
You haven't met a "christian" who believes that God cannot forgive sins.
If a person believes that He cannot, they aren't a christian.
Excellent point Angel. As Christian, God forgives through Christ; not disagreeing with my prior post. Where I'm unclear is on the contrast and comparison of grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
God's forgiveness of sins is limited to only a Remnant, its not offered or available for all mankind. Mich 7:18
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Perhaps I should ask for a clarification. Some here have differentiated between "forgiveness" and being "redeemed". Can you explain the difference? Is belief in Jesus necessary for one, but not the other?
Slogan/motto:
Hope sees the invisible, achieves the impossible.
Reputation:
August 20th, 2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chair
Perhaps I should ask for a clarification. Some here have differentiated between "forgiveness" and being "redeemed". Can you explain the difference? Is belief in Jesus necessary for one, but not the other?
My understanding is indeed that God did forgive people for their sins prior to Jesus' passion (as you pointed out) but that actual redemption was still impossible. Meaning, not only has God decided not to follow through with punishment, but the scales of justice have also been set right. Catholics (and some Reform Protestants) believe that a perfect sacrifice like Jesus' was necessary to fully redeem all of humanity especially from original sin. We believe it was also over-abundantly sufficient to redeem all individual sin (once again, provided that the will to repent and desire for forgiveness are genuine.) Basically, we don't believe that anything else could have actually atoned for sin as fully and completely, whether or not God has decided to continue to hold that sin against us.
I was hoping someone else would step up and actually try to explain, because I know I am bad at this. Cur Deus Homo by Anselm is possibly the most theologically influential Christian take on this subject, though, once again if you want to look deeper than any answers you receive here.
"So as not to exchange one evil for another, this poor land must be saved from the scourge of friend and foe alike." - Friedrich Schiller
Posting ability officially rated "pretty good" by Delmar.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
August 20th, 2012, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chair
Perhaps I should ask for a clarification. Some here have differentiated between "forgiveness" and being "redeemed". Can you explain the difference? Is belief in Jesus necessary for one, but not the other?
I'm sure you know the difference between passover (redemption) and the day of atonement (when sins were taken away).
I believe Jesus Christ is the lamb, and both goats.
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
So for some, no God cannot and will not forgive their sins, for He created them to punish them for their sins !
Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Perhaps I should ask for a clarification. Some here have differentiated between "forgiveness" and being "redeemed". Can you explain the difference? Is belief in Jesus necessary for one, but not the other?
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Chair my jewish friend.
I get the impression that you are earnestly trying to decide
if there is any Relevance to being a Real Christian
and you are trying to decide if you should make the Decision
to become a Real Christian.
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"In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.
"The upright will dwell in the land, the blameless will remain in it."
"Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord. Blessed are those who keep his decrees, who seek him with their whole heart, who do no wrong, but walk in his ways."
"Walk in my presence and be blameless,says the Lord."
" the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins."
Cur Deus Homo by Anselm is possibly the most theologically influential Christian take on this subject, though, once again if you want to look deeper than any answers you receive here.
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