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Catholic v Protestant views on various topics: Lineage of Christ (??), women can’t be - September 4th, 2012, 01:40 PM

Catholic v Protestant views on various topics: Lineage of Christ (??), women can’t be priests, etc


I copied some poster’s comments so as to read them later when I had time. However, I forgot to copy the name of the poster. Maybe s/he will come forward. But in any case, here is my response to that poster on various topics s/he brought up, which others have brought up also.

Quote:
[concerning] the fall of the temple and sacrificial system as a whole Rome has come to set itself up in the place of Judaism (as if it had taken election from the Jews)?
Who says the RCC has “taken election from the Jews”? It sounds like you have been listening to anti-Catholics… Catholicism is a continuation of the Jewish religion, except: WITH Christ. This is as God would have it, since the Jews were the first of His chosen people, and His decrees and rituals are called, “everlasting.” (Old T). However, as you will note, most Jews rejected Christ… Now the Catholics and all those who believe more/less as they do (on the “big” issues), are the elect.
Quote:
Rome can say: "Jesus was a man, and that is why all priests must be men." Yet Jesus was also a Jew, and Rome has not so strongly insisted that all priests be Jews.
Jesus also had a particular hair color. For the sake of argument, let’s say it was black. By your logic, only black-haired people (whether male OR female) could be ordained.
Quote:
Without pointing out the supposed flawed logic your response resounds a bit like a clanging gong or clashing symbol.
And what you say against the RCC resounds as a clanging cymbal to me. By the way, you spelled “cymbal” incorrectly. You make other spelling and grammatical errors, which is important, since it likely will lead others to see you as un-educated. I myself know you are not well educated about Catholicism.
In any case, as to my post not sounding “right” to you: When one holds entrenched beliefs, especially when said beliefs concern religion, the contrary beliefs of others always sound annoying… simply human nature.
Quote:
There were pogroms, and lynchings, and persecutions. Whitclyffe and Hus suffered for the truth (and the Church,
You misspelled Wycliff.
Also, this statement (& others) so resonate with ignorance of both history and Church teaching, it is doubtless anything I say will make any in-roads in dispelling said ignorance… It would be best if you began studying Church history from a truly Catholic author or at least one without a Catholic bias (good luck on that one unless you go to a Catholic book store), as opposed to all the hate monger authors you have undoubtedly been reading thus far.
Quote:
even the Popes of later generations, came to recognize those errors).
Then why was there no pope who resigned the papacy as a result of anything Luther (et al) believed/taught?
Surprise, surprise: you cite NOTHING to back your statement up. How can you, when what you say is untrue? I think it’s time to question your anti-Catholic pastor…
Quote:
If you are denying that the Roman Church ever abused its authority in those ways, you are embracing blindness and ignorance over the truth.
A Church does not abuse. People abuse.

If every Catholic in the Church committed some atrocity or was complicit therewith, then you would have an argument. As it is, you are illogical to blame any organization, even an entirely HUMAN (sans the divine aspect) organization, for atrocities solely based on what a few of its members do.
If you had a brother who committed adultery and I told you that, “your whole family is guilty of adultery because of what your brother did,” you would call me insane.
Quote:
If Israel could persecute their own prophets and apostles, so too can the Church do the same. Rome is not immune to such errors.
See above.
Also: If a Church had only pure and holy members, there would be no need for a Church
Quote:
If God could elect two kings to rule over his one elect people (when they sinned against him) than he is most certainly capable of causing divisions in the Church to correct its errors as well.
God is not the author of confusion. It is man, in league with the devil, who causes confusion, chaos, division, heresies… God brings good out of evil, but he is never the author of it.
There is no need for correction of GOD’s HOLY Church.

Again, the mistake a lot of protestants make is not being able to separate Church from Church members. If every single Catholic were to apostatize, the Church would still be Christ’s One True Church. As one (at least one) saint said, “the Church IS Christ.” (That was St Catherine of Sienna, I believe.)

Quote:
It was you, "truth," who were so arrogantly claiming that only Rome could minister to people.
This is not only presumption, but probably projection as well. You are saying of me what can likely be said of yourself. In other words, you see evil (arrogance) in what I say because you see so much arrogance in… either yourself and/or those around you—probably both. How is it arrogant to speak the truth? Just because you do not see or understand or accept a given truth does not make it a falsehood. Just because someone you dislike (a Catholic) is the one to point out a given truth to you, and you think the Catholic Church is all wrong… again, that does not mean said truth is any less true. You are speaking mostly from your subjective feelings. You have been taught to hate Catholicism, and it is difficult to give up long-held beliefs— what one feels is reality…
Quote:
It is Rome that has claimed that God's ministry on earth depends on its authority (in the same way that Solomon and Jeroboam tried to do the same in their own time).
Why do you compare the Roman Catholic Church, which came AFTER Christ and was instituted by Him (something you may actually at least suspect, but don’t want to admit you suspect), with the kingships of mere mortals, mortals who, I might add, committed murder or attempted murder (David, Saul)?
The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER sanctioned murder. Even when the Church declared someone a heretic, it was never said by the Church (ex cathedra) that the heretic should be put to death. That was a decision that so-called Catholic kings and queens made. Many times priests and bishops interceded on behalf of the accused heretic to save his life. But they were not always listened to…
Oh Gee… people not listening to the Church… imagine that…
I'm thinking: abortion … stem cell research… artificial b control
Even Catholics do not listen to the Church
Quote:
Such claims to authority are made by those who have not yet learned the lessons of the apostles and prophets.
If a person or institution has authority, it is only proper to say so
Maybe you have a problem with authority of any kind (save your own)?
Quote:
Daniel and his companions are among the apostles and prophets on whom the Church was built. If you ignore their witness you build a church without a foundation.
again, you show your ignorance of Catholicism. At the daily Mass, readings are taken from both Old and New Testaments and all books, including the book of Daniel, are included.
you accept the hate rhetoric of those who hate the Church
Quote:
Your claims that Catholics are incapable of committing atrocities is patently absurd.
Your claim that I claimed Catholics are incapable of committing atrocities is patently absurd…
Quote:
The entire state-sanctioned Roman Church of Germany and the Pope with that Church stood behind Hitler, even when he was slaughtering innocents and the people of God.
Until you get an education in history from reliable sources (which would mean sources without a anti-Catholic bias), I don’t feel I can discuss a whole lot with you. I cannot disabuse you of your false knowledge, so called… only you can do that
[quote]
The state-sanctioned Church…??!! Geez… The Church Christ established is not one with ANY state and Pius XII NEVER condoned what the Nazis did or helped them in any way. In fact, he saved many thousands of Jew’s lives. You may want to read the book Pius XII and WWII, assuming you are interested in objective truth.
Quote:
In fact, many of the Churches, both Protestant and Catholic, were quite guilty of murder by Jesus' standards in their hate speak against the Jews of Germany leading up to those years of genocide under Hitler.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there have been bad Christians since Day One…
Quote:
No, you cannot claim superiority for Catholics in this area (especially given the current scandals tearing through the Catholic Church throughout the world).
Again, pedophilia is twice as high in Protestant “Churches.”
Also again: no organization can be held severally responsible for the actions of one of its members. You wouldn’t like it if your father murdered someone and the DA prosecuted your entire family for it
Quote:
The RCC is only one branch of the church. Its authority is limited to its domain (as God himself has clearly shown in taking its authority away from it, just as he did to Solomon long ago).
I suppose it was your anti-Catholic pastor who told you that authority has been taken from the Roman Catholic Church?
Let me ask you this: Can any mere human take authority from Jesus Christ and his true Church?
If the RCC is Christ’s Church (it is), then no mere human can take away its authority. Even if every Catholic Church in the world were destroyed today, including the Vatican, that does not take away the Church’s authority. It only takes Christ’s Church out of the world… (yet not even that, since there would still be believers)
and then Hell would take over completely… whereas as long as Christ’s Church is in the world, Hell only takes over to a limited extent (to the extent there is disobedience to and separation from Christ’s Church).
Quote:

The Church is not one in Rome (as Rome has so effectively demonstrated through the history of unending divisions that have come as a result of its claims to power on earth).
This is truly laughable. You show your ignorance of history again. It was in the time period of Luther(et al) that the world began to see massive division in Christianity… division that continues:
one new “church” every week.
Until you study history better, I feel we cannot effectively discuss things. It is a totally unbalanced discussion when one has done the homework and the other has not.
Quote:
And again, willful ignorance will save no one.
Well, I certainly have no argument with that… (rather ironic, though…)





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September 7th, 2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:
even the Popes of later generations, came to recognize those errors).
Then why was there no pope who resigned the papacy as a result of anything Luther (et al) believed/taught?





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September 7th, 2012, 08:48 AM

I suppose it was your anti-Catholic pastor who told you that authority has been taken from the Roman Catholic Church?
Let me ask you this:

Can any mere human take authority from Jesus Christ and his true Church?


If the RCC is Christ’s Church (it is), then no mere human can take away its authority. Even if every Catholic Church in the world were destroyed today, including the Vatican, that does not take away the Church’s authority. It only takes Christ’s Church out of the world… (yet not even that, since there would still be believers)
and then Hell would take over virtually completely… whereas as long as Christ’s Church is in the world, Hell only takes over to a limited extent (to the extent there is disobedience to and separation from Christ’s Church).





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September 8th, 2012, 03:01 PM

A Church does not abuse. People abuse.

If every Catholic in the Church committed some atrocity or was complicit therewith, then you would have an argument. As it is, you are illogical to blame any organization, even an entirely HUMAN (sans the divine aspect) organization, for atrocities solely based on what a few of its members do.
If you had a brother who committed adultery and I told you that, “your whole family is guilty of adultery because of what your brother did,” you would call me insane.





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September 8th, 2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree View Post
Catholic v Protestant views on various topics: Lineage of Christ (??), women can’t be priests, etc


I copied some poster’s comments so as to read them later when I had time. However, I forgot to copy the name of the poster. Maybe s/he will come forward. But in any case, here is my response to that poster on various topics s/he brought up, which others have brought up also.


Who says the RCC has “taken election from the Jews”? It sounds like you have been listening to anti-Catholics… Catholicism is a continuation of the Jewish religion, except: WITH Christ. This is as God would have it, since the Jews were the first of His chosen people, and His decrees and rituals are called, “everlasting.” (Old T). However, as you will note, most Jews rejected Christ… Now the Catholics and all those who believe more/less as they do (on the “big” issues), are the elect.

Jesus also had a particular hair color. For the sake of argument, let’s say it was black. By your logic, only black-haired people (whether male OR female) could be ordained.

And what you say against the RCC resounds as a clanging cymbal to me. By the way, you spelled “cymbal” incorrectly. You make other spelling and grammatical errors, which is important, since it likely will lead others to see you as un-educated. I myself know you are not well educated about Catholicism.
In any case, as to my post not sounding “right” to you: When one holds entrenched beliefs, especially when said beliefs concern religion, the contrary beliefs of others always sound annoying… simply human nature.

You misspelled Wycliff.
Also, this statement (& others) so resonate with ignorance of both history and Church teaching, it is doubtless anything I say will make any in-roads in dispelling said ignorance… It would be best if you began studying Church history from a truly Catholic author or at least one without a Catholic bias (good luck on that one unless you go to a Catholic book store), as opposed to all the hate monger authors you have undoubtedly been reading thus far.

Then why was there no pope who resigned the papacy as a result of anything Luther (et al) believed/taught?
Surprise, surprise: you cite NOTHING to back your statement up. How can you, when what you say is untrue? I think it’s time to question your anti-Catholic pastor…


A Church does not abuse. People abuse.

If every Catholic in the Church committed some atrocity or was complicit therewith, then you would have an argument. As it is, you are illogical to blame any organization, even an entirely HUMAN (sans the divine aspect) organization, for atrocities solely based on what a few of its members do.
If you had a brother who committed adultery and I told you that, “your whole family is guilty of adultery because of what your brother did,” you would call me insane.

See above.
Also: If a Church had only pure and holy members, there would be no need for a Church

God is not the author of confusion. It is man, in league with the devil, who causes confusion, chaos, division, heresies… God brings good out of evil, but he is never the author of it.
There is no need for correction of GOD’s HOLY Church.

Again, the mistake a lot of protestants make is not being able to separate Church from Church members. If every single Catholic were to apostatize, the Church would still be Christ’s One True Church. As one (at least one) saint said, “the Church IS Christ.” (That was St Catherine of Sienna, I believe.)


This is not only presumption, but probably projection as well. You are saying of me what can likely be said of yourself. In other words, you see evil (arrogance) in what I say because you see so much arrogance in… either yourself and/or those around you—probably both. How is it arrogant to speak the truth? Just because you do not see or understand or accept a given truth does not make it a falsehood. Just because someone you dislike (a Catholic) is the one to point out a given truth to you, and you think the Catholic Church is all wrong… again, that does not mean said truth is any less true. You are speaking mostly from your subjective feelings. You have been taught to hate Catholicism, and it is difficult to give up long-held beliefs— what one feels is reality…

Why do you compare the Roman Catholic Church, which came AFTER Christ and was instituted by Him (something you may actually at least suspect, but don’t want to admit you suspect), with the kingships of mere mortals, mortals who, I might add, committed murder or attempted murder (David, Saul)?
The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER sanctioned murder. Even when the Church declared someone a heretic, it was never said by the Church (ex cathedra) that the heretic should be put to death. That was a decision that so-called Catholic kings and queens made. Many times priests and bishops interceded on behalf of the accused heretic to save his life. But they were not always listened to…
Oh Gee… people not listening to the Church… imagine that…
I'm thinking: abortion … stem cell research… artificial b control
Even Catholics do not listen to the Church

If a person or institution has authority, it is only proper to say so
Maybe you have a problem with authority of any kind (save your own)?

again, you show your ignorance of Catholicism. At the daily Mass, readings are taken from both Old and New Testaments and all books, including the book of Daniel, are included.
you accept the hate rhetoric of those who hate the Church

Your claim that I claimed Catholics are incapable of committing atrocities is patently absurd…

Until you get an education in history from reliable sources (which would mean sources without a anti-Catholic bias), I don’t feel I can discuss a whole lot with you. I cannot disabuse you of your false knowledge, so called… only you can do that
Quote:
The state-sanctioned Church…??!! Geez… The Church Christ established is not one with ANY state and Pius XII NEVER condoned what the Nazis did or helped them in any way. In fact, he saved many thousands of Jew’s lives. You may want to read the book Pius XII and WWII, assuming you are interested in objective truth.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there have been bad Christians since Day One…

Again, pedophilia is twice as high in Protestant “Churches.”
Also again: no organization can be held severally responsible for the actions of one of its members. You wouldn’t like it if your father murdered someone and the DA prosecuted your entire family for it
I suppose it was your anti-Catholic pastor who told you that authority has been taken from the Roman Catholic Church?
Let me ask you this: Can any mere human take authority from Jesus Christ and his true Church?
If the RCC is Christ’s Church (it is), then no mere human can take away its authority. Even if every Catholic Church in the world were destroyed today, including the Vatican, that does not take away the Church’s authority. It only takes Christ’s Church out of the world… (yet not even that, since there would still be believers)
and then Hell would take over completely… whereas as long as Christ’s Church is in the world, Hell only takes over to a limited extent (to the extent there is disobedience to and separation from Christ’s Church).

This is truly laughable. You show your ignorance of history again. It was in the time period of Luther(et al) that the world began to see massive division in Christianity… division that continues:
one new “church” every week.
Until you study history better, I feel we cannot effectively discuss things. It is a totally unbalanced discussion when one has done the homework and the other has not.

Well, I certainly have no argument with that… (rather ironic, though…)
Women are excluded from this lineage by the same token that Gentiles would be. If you want to exclude women from your lineage you exclude all Gentiles as well.

Peace,
Michael




Last edited by seekinganswers; September 10th, 2012 at 11:35 AM..
   
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September 10th, 2012, 10:49 AM

[QUOTE=seekinganswers;3206085]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree View Post
[SIZE="3"]Catholic v Protestant views on various topics: Lineage of Christ (??), women can’t be priests, etc


I copied some poster’s comments so as to read them later when I had time. However, I forgot to copy the name of the poster. Maybe s/he will come forward. But in any case, here is my response to that poster on various topics s/he brought up, which others have brought up also.


Who says the RCC has “taken election from the Jews”? It sounds like you have been listening to anti-Catholics… Catholicism is a continuation of the Jewish religion, except: WITH Christ. This is as God would have it, since the Jews were the first of His chosen people, and His decrees and rituals are called, “everlasting.” (Old T). However, as you will note, most Jews rejected Christ… Now the Catholics and all those who believe more/less as they do (on the “big” issues), are the elect.

Jesus also had a particular hair color. For the sake of argument, let’s say it was black. By your logic, only black-haired people (whether male OR female) could be ordained.

And what you say against the RCC resounds as a clanging cymbal to me. By the way, you spelled “cymbal” incorrectly. You make other spelling and grammatical errors, which is important, since it likely will lead others to see you as un-educated. I myself know you are not well educated about Catholicism.
In any case, as to my post not sounding “right” to you: When one holds entrenched beliefs, especially when said beliefs concern religion, the contrary beliefs of others always sound annoying… simply human nature.

You misspelled Wycliff.
Also, this statement (& others) so resonate with ignorance of both history and Church teaching, it is doubtless anything I say will make any in-roads in dispelling said ignorance… It would be best if you began studying Church history from a truly Catholic author or at least one without a Catholic bias (good luck on that one unless you go to a Catholic book store), as opposed to all the hate monger authors you have undoubtedly been reading thus far.

Then why was there no pope who resigned the papacy as a result of anything Luther (et al) believed/taught?
Surprise, surprise: you cite NOTHING to back your statement up. How can you, when what you say is untrue? I think it’s time to question your anti-Catholic pastor…


A Church does not abuse. People abuse.

If every Catholic in the Church committed some atrocity or was complicit therewith, then you would have an argument. As it is, you are illogical to blame any organization, even an entirely HUMAN (sans the divine aspect) organization, for atrocities solely based on what a few of its members do.
If you had a brother who committed adultery and I told you that, “your whole family is guilty of adultery because of what your brother did,” you would call me insane.

See above.
Also: If a Church had only pure and holy members, there would be no need for a Church

God is not the author of confusion. It is man, in league with the devil, who causes confusion, chaos, division, heresies… God brings good out of evil, but he is never the author of it.
There is no need for correction of GOD’s HOLY Church.

Again, the mistake a lot of protestants make is not being able to separate Church from Church members. If every single Catholic were to apostatize, the Church would still be Christ’s One True Church. As one (at least one) saint said, “the Church IS Christ.” (That was St Catherine of Sienna, I believe.)


This is not only presumption, but probably projection as well. You are saying of me what can likely be said of yourself. In other words, you see evil (arrogance) in what I say because you see so much arrogance in… either yourself and/or those around you—probably both. How is it arrogant to speak the truth? Just because you do not see or understand or accept a given truth does not make it a falsehood. Just because someone you dislike (a Catholic) is the one to point out a given truth to you, and you think the Catholic Church is all wrong… again, that does not mean said truth is any less true. You are speaking mostly from your subjective feelings. You have been taught to hate Catholicism, and it is difficult to give up long-held beliefs— what one feels is reality…

Why do you compare the Roman Catholic Church, which came AFTER Christ and was instituted by Him (something you may actually at least suspect, but don’t want to admit you suspect), with the kingships of mere mortals, mortals who, I might add, committed murder or attempted murder (David, Saul)?
The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER sanctioned murder. Even when the Church declared someone a heretic, it was never said by the Church (ex cathedra) that the heretic should be put to death. That was a decision that so-called Catholic kings and queens made. Many times priests and bishops interceded on behalf of the accused heretic to save his life. But they were not always listened to…
Oh Gee… people not listening to the Church… imagine that…
I'm thinking: abortion … stem cell research… artificial b control
Even Catholics do not listen to the Church

If a person or institution has authority, it is only proper to say so
Maybe you have a problem with authority of any kind (save your own)?

again, you show your ignorance of Catholicism. At the daily Mass, readings are taken from both Old and New Testaments and all books, including the book of Daniel, are included.
you accept the hate rhetoric of those who hate the Church

Your claim that I claimed Catholics are incapable of committing atrocities is patently absurd…

Until you get an education in history from reliable sources (which would mean sources without a anti-Catholic bias), I don’t feel I can discuss a whole lot with you. I cannot disabuse you of your false knowledge, so called… only you can do that


Women are excluded from this lineage by the same token that Gentiles would be. If you want to exclude women from your lineage you exclude all Gentiles as well.

Peace,
Michael
your logic is not logical





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September 10th, 2012, 11:41 AM

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Originally Posted by seekinganswers View Post

your logic is not logical
If the distinction between men and women remains in the priesthood of the Church, then so too does the distinction between Jews and Gentiles. If Rome's logic for the male priesthood holds (excluding women from it), then so to must the distinction between Gentiles and Jews (thus excluding any Gentile priest). Just as Jesus was a male so too was he a Jew, and if his manhood defines the priesthood that follows from him so too does his Jewishness. Since Rome has broken this standard of ordaining only Jewish priests, I would have to say that Rome's "priesthood" is a thing of its own invention. Jesus never established a priesthood (for an example of a Jewish movement that did, see the historical events surrounding the Maccabean revolt). Rome's understanding of the priesthood is no different than the Protestant claims to scriptural inerrency: they both look for an authority that was never given to them and they both attempt to establish a foundation that removes our dependence on Israel who came before us. Israel must remain as our foundation if we are to be faithful to Christ.

Peace,
Michael



   
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September 12th, 2012, 12:14 PM

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Originally Posted by seekinganswers View Post
If the distinction between men and women remains in the priesthood of the Church, then so too does the distinction between Jews and Gentiles. If Rome's logic for the male priesthood holds (excluding women from it), then so to must the distinction between Gentiles and Jews (thus excluding any Gentile priest).
Are u saying there is no difference between religious belief and gender?? Yes, that is exactly what u r saying.

If Jesus had wanted female apostles, he would have chosen one, but all 12 were male

Quote:
Since Rome has broken this standard of ordaining only Jewish priests, I would have to say that Rome's "priesthood" is a thing of its own invention.
I am not inclined to use the word "invent" but for the sake of argument... i will say that the Church Christ founded on Earth can "invent" what it wants, can't it?? IF it is Christ who does the inventing... Why do you have a problem with that? Oh, u dont believe the RCC is the Church Christ founded? well, read some Church history from a reliable source.. spend some time in the Real Presence, where everything looks diffrent... put down the Jack Chick tracks for a minute...





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September 12th, 2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree View Post
Are u saying there is no difference between religious belief and gender?? Yes, that is exactly what u r saying.

If Jesus had wanted female apostles, he would have chosen one, but all 12 were male


If he had wanted Gentile apostles he would have chosen them too. But he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree View Post
I am not inclined to use the word "invent" but for the sake of argument... i will say that the Church Christ founded on Earth can "invent" what it wants, can't it?? IF it is Christ who does the inventing... Why do you have a problem with that? Oh, u dont believe the RCC is the Church Christ founded? well, read some Church history from a reliable source.. spend some time in the Real Presence, where everything looks diffrent... put down the Jack Chick tracks for a minute...
This rationale was certainly what Israel thought was possible long ago. It was decried as idolatrous by the prophets, however.

Peace,
Michael



   
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September 12th, 2012, 12:26 PM

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Originally Posted by seekinganswers View Post
If he had wanted Gentile apostles he would have chosen them too. But he didn't.



This rationale was certainly what Israel thought was possible long ago. It was decried as idolatrous by the prophets, however.

Peace,
Michael
i have no idea what you mean by the last thing????





"Whatever you do to God's people, you do to God" - Mt 25:31
   
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September 12th, 2012, 10:02 PM

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i have no idea what you mean by the last thing????
Israel thought they could "invent" things as part of their religion because God had chosen them. Aaron their first high priest did just such a thing (he made a golden calf and dedicated it to Adonai, the same God who had brought Israel out of Egypt). Aaron's "invention" was most certainly not God-ordained (though Aaron was the ordained priest of God).

Peace,
Michael



   
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September 13th, 2012, 03:41 AM

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A Church does not abuse. People abuse.

If every Catholic in the Church committed some atrocity or was complicit therewith, then you would have an argument. As it is, you are illogical to blame any organization, even an entirely HUMAN (sans the divine aspect) organization, for atrocities solely based on what a few of its members do.
What percentage of the members of an organised crime gang would you require to have been convicted before you busted the whole gang?

What would your reaction be if the gang had only a few child abusers in it, but they had a code of behaviour that systematically covered up that abuse and interfered with police investigation? Don't forget about Crimen sollicitationis now, will you.

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If you had a brother who committed adultery and I told you that, “your whole family is guilty of adultery because of what your brother did,” you would call me insane
So what of the sanity of those who claim we all hold shares in original sin?



   
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September 13th, 2012, 06:52 PM

Catholic v Protestant views? What do the scriptures say concerning these issues? Is not anything else conjecture?



   
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September 13th, 2012, 08:06 PM

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Originally Posted by M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh View Post
Catholic v Protestant views? What do the scriptures say concerning these issues? Is not anything else conjecture?
You will not that my example came from scripture (not from any Catholic/Protestant posturing).

There still needs to be a context for our reading of scripture as well. What is that context? I would argue that it is and always has been Israel the people whom God formed throughout history.

Peace,
Michael



   
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September 13th, 2012, 08:34 PM

Comparison of Beliefs

*
Taken from Roman Catholicism: Scripture vs. Tradition

The Doctrine of Jesus:

The Bible - (New American Standard Bible)

The Roman Catholic Church - (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Jesus the Savior:

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. RCC teaches that “by His death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us” (1026). Each person attains his own salvation by grace and by the Holy Spirit, good works (1477).

Jesus the Redeemer:

1 Peter 1:17-19 And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co- Redeemer. “Without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with Him…being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494).

Jesus the Redeemer - Jesus our Advocate and only Mediator:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

RCC teaches that Mary “did not lay aside [her] saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” She “is ...Advocate… and Mediatrix” (969).


Jesus, Head of the Church:

Ephesians 1:22-23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

RCC teaches that the Pope, “by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has Full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise un-hindered” (882). He exercises infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (891).


Jesus the soon-coming King:

Acts 1:11 and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars of Catholic churches to be worshipped: “The body and blood…soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ…is truly, really and substantially contained" in the Eucharist (1374-1378)

Christ's Work

Jesus is the propitiation for our sin:

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

RCC teaches that sins are expiated (forgiven) in purgatory through “a cleansing fire” and that we “must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030, 31; 1472-75)


Jesus finished the work of redemption:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 7:27-28 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

RCC denies it is finished. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice…the same Christ who offered Himself once in bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner" (1367). “Every time this mystery is celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on" (1405). The sacrifice is “offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead" (1414)

His life, death, and resurrection provide the only way to be saved:

Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”

RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

His shed blood is the only remission for sins:

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

RCC teaches “an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose Guilt has already been forgiven, which…may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471).


Jesus cleanses us from sin:

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; Colossians 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030).


Doctrine of Salvation

Salvation is proclaimed in the Gospel

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation, including: the Sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256).


Salvation is of God, not man:

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation— having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, John 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration ... without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God" (1213, 1215)


Salvation is through faith, not works:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Psalms 49:7-8 No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever—

RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479).


Salvation is by grace, not merit:

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved: “We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life” (2027)


Salvation rejected is Hell:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

RCC teaches that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer…eternal fire" (1035)


The Doctrine of Justification:

Justification, what is it? - The act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Romans 5:18 says: So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a different doctrine on justification compared to that of Biblical Christianity.


Biblical Doctrine

Roman Catholic Doctrine:

Justification is God’s act of declaring a sinner righteous by faith
Justification is God’s act of making man righteous by good works and obedience
Christ’s imputed righteousness makes the believer acceptable to God
Infused sanctifying grace through the sacraments makes the believer acceptable to God
Justification is received by faith alone
Justification is achieved by faith plus good works
Justification enables God to see the sinner as if he were just
Justification is granted the sinner when he is actually made just
Justification cannot increase since the ground is the perfect righteousness of Christ
Justification can be increased by receiving more sacraments
Justification is a permanent verdict and is not affected by sin
Justification is affected by sin
Justification comes at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ
Final justification is not determined until death
Emphasis is on God’s verdict
Emphasis is on the sacraments

Dogmas Declared by the Roman Catholic Church

Here are some Doctrines or Dogmas declared by the Roman Catholic Church. These Dogmas violate the teaching of Scripture.

437 Proclamation that infant baptism regenerates the soul
500 The Mass instituted as a re-sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins
593 Declaration that sins need to be purged, established by Pope Gregory I
600 Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints, and angels
786 Worship of cross, images, and relics authorized
995 Canonization of dead people as saints initiated by Pope John XV
1000 Attendance at Mass made mandatory under the penalty of mortal sin
1079 Celibacy of priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII
1090 Rosary, repetitious praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit
1184 The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona
1190 The sale of Indulgences established to reduce time in Purgatory
1215 Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III
1215 Confession of sins to priests, instituted by Pope Innocent III
1229 Bible placed on Index of Forbidden Books in Toulouse
1438 Purgatory elevated from doctrine to dogma by Council of Florence
1545 Tradition claimed equal in authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent
1546 Apocryphal Books declared cannon by Council of Trent
1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX
1870 Infallibility of the Pope, proclaimed by Vatican Council
1922 Virgin Mary proclaimed co-redeemer with Jesus by Pope Benedict XV

Mary Glorified by the Roman Catholic Church

The Roman Catholic Church places Mary, mother of Jesus, in a position of Deity. Listed are some of the prayers offered to Mary.

Hail Mary Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus, Whom you conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Hail, Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us. And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

The Memorare of St. Bernard
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that nay one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, and sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my Mother; to thee I come; before thee I stand sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.

Cardinal and Saint Apphonsus de Liquori wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary. The chapter titles ascribe attributes and titles that belong to Christ alone. Some of the titles are:

  • Mary, Our Hope
  • Mary, Our Help
  • Mary, Our Salvation
  • Mary, Our Life
  • Mary, Our Advocate
Source: http://www.acts1711.com/rcc_bbl.htm





Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

“The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.” ― Philip K. Dick

Last edited by Saved.One.by.Grace; September 13th, 2012 at 08:58 PM..
   
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