Open View TheologyThe Open View teaches that God can change the future. He interacts with the flow of history and changes the outcome of the future as it unfolds by His decisions and actions.
This forum is dedicated to the discussion of openness theology.
Did God know that man would sin? -
September 4th, 2012, 04:36 PM
How do open theists explain that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world?
This would mean He already had a plan of salvation, which infers that He knew already that man would sin.
If He knew already that man would sin, would that not in itself show that God indeed has foreknowledge and can see and as such plan and work those things for His Glory?
If He didn't already know that man would sin, yet made a plan of salvation - would that not infer that He made us sin?
How do open theists explain that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world?
He wasn't.
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This would mean He already had a plan of salvation, which infers that He knew already that man would sin.
This is now moot as you began from a false assumption.
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If He knew already that man would sin, would that not in itself show that God indeed has foreknowledge and can see and as such plan and work those things for His Glory?
Again, this is moot.
Also, we never said God is completely void of foreknowledge. We just say He does not have exhaustive, or definite, foreknowledge of that which is yet to come.
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If He didn't already know that man would sin, yet made a plan of salvation - would that not infer that He made us sin?
Moot, as your premise is a false assumption.
Though it is perfectly plausible that He would make a plan for the possibility. He is God of the possible, after all.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Ephesians 1:4 According as He has chosen us in Himbefore the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Quote:
This is now moot as you began from a false assumption.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Ephesians 1:4 According as He has chosen us in Himbefore the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
False, please answer the op.
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
-Revelation 17:8
This would mean He already had a plan of salvation, which infers that He knew already that man would sin.
I don't see how this inference is a necessity. Could it also not be that God knew it was possible that it could occur, and as a result of this possibility instituted a reality in which salvation would be provided?
In other words, if Plan A didn't work, Plan B, C, etc. could. Our future is contigent, not on God alone, but also on our own compatible, conscious effort to remain with God
God very well know all possible worlds since before they began. He knew every possible consequence of every possible action. Even in the worst possible world, I believe God still would have a divine plan instituted in which mankind would not be lost. Think about it, any other alternative would mean that God made it possible for Himself to lose; a "rock to heavy for Himself to lift".
Since all life is valuable to Him, I think it was destiny that He instituted solutions for errors outside of His direct control. This, as I see it, is what it means when God knows the alpha & omega.
Slogan/motto:
Love is the greatest force the world will ever know, but love is not forceful
Reputation:
September 14th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
How do open theists explain that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world?
This would mean He already had a plan of salvation, which infers that He knew already that man would sin.
If He knew already that man would sin, would that not in itself show that God indeed has foreknowledge and can see and as such plan and work those things for His Glory?
If He didn't already know that man would sin, yet made a plan of salvation - would that not infer that He made us sin?
Hi A4T, I have a different take on what is being said, for your consideration.
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.
If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the capstone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
*
The scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
Hi A4T, I have a different take on what is being said, for your consideration.
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.
If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the capstone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
*
The scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
The verses are seperate, one says he was slain before the foundation of the world and the other that we are in him before then and i think its saying because He knows who choose Him and already had a plan of salvation because He already knew we would sin.
Thanks for your response though and great meeting you!
Slogan/motto:
Love is the greatest force the world will ever know, but love is not forceful
Reputation:
September 14th, 2012, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
Read Revelation 17:8 and think this over again.
Read it, it changes nothing.
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
If God knew from the foundation of the world (according to your understanding) why does He say they will reverence my son?
This parable is a great parable for the open view as it shows God actually thought they would reverence His son.
So if God thought they would reverence His son how can the foundation of the world be as you believe?
Slogan/motto:
Love is the greatest force the world will ever know, but love is not forceful
Reputation:
September 14th, 2012, 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
The verses are seperate, one says he was slain before the foundation of the world and the other that we are in him before then and i think its saying because He knows who choose Him and already had a plan of salvation because He already knew we would sin.
Thanks for your response though and great meeting you!
It does not make a difference A4T. Cannot one be in Christ before the foundation of the new world?
As a matter of fact is that not what the gospel is about? being in Christ that we might gain the new world.
Slogan/motto:
Love is the greatest force the world will ever know, but love is not forceful
Reputation:
September 15th, 2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
I didnt say anything about an old or new world and i think the verses i posted are about this current one.
Morning A4T.
In you opening post you asked
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How do open theists explain that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world?
This would mean He already had a plan of salvation, which infers that He knew already that man would sin.
If He knew already that man would sin, would that not in itself show that God indeed has foreknowledge and can see and as such plan and work those things for His Glory?
If He didn't already know that man would sin, yet made a plan of salvation - would that not infer that He made us sin?
If you reread my first post to you, you will see I answered those questions. It is ok if you do not agree with my understanding but your question where answered.
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
-Revelation 17:8
How does that not change anything?
Do you see anything missing from this verse when compared to Rev. 13:8?
This question is for you too, Angel.
Quote:
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
If God knew from the foundation of the world (according to your understanding) why does He say they will reverence my son?
This parable is a great parable for the open view as it shows God actually thought they would reverence His son.
So if God thought they would reverence His son how can the foundation of the world be as you believe?
My understanding? You need to learn to read. I never said God knew from the foundation of the world. In fact, I don't believe He did. I hold to the open view theology for which this particular sub-forum was created.
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