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Predestiny rambles -
September 9th, 2012, 06:54 AM
People as believe in predestiny and election are of ten accused of arrogance and yet when God would set forth His elect people He sets them forth in the picture of SHEEP
Anyone on TOL want to own up to being a I am happy to being a sheepses. I have a WONDERFUL Shepherd, He calls me by name and goes before me and leads me in and out to rich pasture.
He leads me beside still waters
He spreads a feast for me right in front of my foes
He annointest my head with oil [glory]
My cup runneth over
And He WILL bring me to dwell with Him forever in God's house.
Now some people cannot in all integrity deny that the bible does teach PREDESTINY and ELECTION but they feel somewhat embarassed by the teaching so they seek to qualify it by saying that it is the CHURCH which is predestined and elect. This the error of Episcopalianism for to them joining the church or being joined to the church via sacraments and holy rituals and ceremonies is the root and heart of the matter.
First let me say WHY such people feel embarrassed by the idea that THEY have been PERSONALLY predestined and picked by God.
They feel that way because one day Jean Calvin was stood before a great concourse of keen students expounding the doctrines of predestiny and election and one piped up and asked "Doctor Calvin does this mean that all who were not predestined unto salvation must neccesarily be predestined to be damned?"
Now as I raed the story of this history records that Calvin was caught off guard, he hesitated, he stalled but finally admitted that he could see no other alternative to it.
He should have said or he should have but that is very easy to do if you are not some great doctor of religion and all Europe is not hanging upon your every word.
When I read his reply I cried to the Lord, I know the God who has taken up His abode in me is a merciful God.
God is merciful, God is merciful, God is MERCIFUL.
Now who am I but a dead dog to question Calvin? James say "If anyone among you lacks wisdom let him ask God who giveth to every man liberally and upbraideth not" anyone of you, not anyone of you who has studied at Leipzig or Douay. God LOVES to teach His scriptures, never read the scripture without you are sure the Holy Ghost is resting upon you and that to bless and teach you. The bible becomes a feast of fat things full of marrow, wine on the lees well refined.
I learned [I am in the library and on a fizzer, my time is nearly up ] that predestination and election is not taught in the bible in relation to salvation, that;s right, neccesarily we must be saved but the predestiny and election relate to BLESSING the world around us and not even only the church. It relates to LIFTING fallen mankind.
Paul teaches it in Romans and bases his teaching upon Jacob and Esau, now I know the gloomsters [Calvinists and Arminians alike] will leap upon that and say "ah but Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" but there is nothing in the story of Esau that will show that he was damned, no, no, he was passed over in the matter of the blessing in favour of Jacob. Friends the church just have to get out of this old way of seeing cursing and damnation in every line of scripture.
I BELIEVE in eternal punishment, I believe the wicked will be turned into hell but God never has chosen me and sent me to judge who they are, He never sent Jesus [the first time] for that. He hasn't sent ANYONE to judge and determine who will be saved who damned.
No we are predestined [according who God foreknew, it is no random deal it is PERSONAL He chose YOU] and chosen Paul said to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. That is we are chosen to SAVE to LIFT and BLESS our race like He did. We are to be like candles set upon a candlestick to give light to ALL the house, a city set upon a hill. Salt to stop the putrification all around.
In Ephesians Paul teaches we were chosen in Christ before all worlds began, how ayone can read ephesians and believe that THEY chose Christ is beyond me. But we are chosen to show forth the glorious praises of God's grace.
Those 2 things we are predestined and chosen for, to be like Jesus and live for His glory.
This fills my heart with great joy. What a doctrine, this is no doctrine to be ashamed of but to glory in.
People as believe in predestiny and election are of ten accused of arrogance and yet when God would set forth His elect people He sets them forth in the picture of SHEEP
Anyone on TOL want to own up to being a I am happy to being a sheepses. I have a WONDERFUL Shepherd, He calls me by name and goes before me and leads me in and out to rich pasture.
He leads me beside still waters
He spreads a feast for me right in front of my foes
He annointest my head with oil [glory]
My cup runneth over
And He WILL bring me to dwell with Him forever in God's house.
I love this Psalm.
Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Quote:
Now some people cannot in all integrity deny that the bible does teach PREDESTINY and ELECTION but they feel somewhat embarassed by the teaching so they seek to qualify it by saying that it is the CHURCH which is predestined and elect. This the error of Episcopalianism for to them joining the church or being joined to the church via sacraments and holy rituals and ceremonies is the root and heart of the matter.
I believe in predestiny and election, but I'm not the least bit embarassed about it. I don't believe it has one single thing to do with sacraments or ceremonies...rather it's being a member of the BODY OF CHRIST. It's being IN CHRIST...a member of His body that makes us the church of God. Thus, those who enter into the Elect ONE are the elect. It's that elect that is predestined to be conformed into the image of the ELECT ONE.
Quote:
First let me say WHY such people feel embarrassed by the idea that THEY have been PERSONALLY predestined and picked by God.
They feel that way because one day Jean Calvin was stood before a great concourse of keen students expounding the doctrines of predestiny and election and one piped up and asked "Doctor Calvin does this mean that all who were not predestined unto salvation must neccesarily be predestined to be damned?"
Now as I raed the story of this history records that Calvin was caught off guard, he hesitated, he stalled but finally admitted that he could see no other alternative to it.
He should have said or he should have but that is very easy to do if you are not some great doctor of religion and all Europe is not hanging upon your every word.
What men have said isn't what counts...as you know. However, they certainly can affect one's thinking on this issue.
Quote:
In Ephesians Paul teaches we were chosen in Christ before all worlds began, how ayone can read ephesians and believe that THEY chose Christ is beyond me. But we are chosen to show forth the glorious praises of God's grace.
Those 2 things we are predestined and chosen for, to be like Jesus and live for His glory.
This fills my heart with great joy. What a doctrine, this is no doctrine to be ashamed of but to glory in.
Yes, we are chosen IN CHRIST. There's your answer. How do we get IN CHRIST? We hear the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. Godly sorrow works repentance, the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts and we are born again...new creatures. Created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Being fully persuaded...not picked out in advance...we are justified by Faith. Can't forget about that part.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
To glory I would say that it is important to be precise "God chose us in Him before the founding of the world"
It is not just pernicketyness, the choice was God's. It is because there are a vast majority now in the church who have themselves chosen Christ of their own supposed free will that is [certainly in my view] the very root and core of all that is wrong with western christianity. WHY?
Because people who suppose they have chosen Christ have chosen Him on THEIR terms. True and full salvation comes when we submit to the Lordship of Christ. That is we surrender to His sovereign will. But these good folk still have and maintain their own supposed freewill which is not freewill really but a will and mind at emnity with God....they are still in rebellion.
This is what is wrong, when God's word comes to them by whatever means it comes their "freewill" and their carnal minds rebel against it and fight against it.
Even when they read it in the bible, they will seek to twist and turn scriptures [and they will find teachers to help them do it] until it says something more to their liking.
Moreover it is those who suppose they have chosen to follow Christ who when the going gets a little tough if the all important work of the Holy Ghost has not been done in their hearts will chose to decide to follow Him no more.
Nobody is born again until Jesus comes fully to dwell in their hearts by the Holy Ghost. Now I am far from saying that those in the other camp do not have Christ or that they are unregenerate. But many slip into the church on the basis of having "made a decision" a freewill choice to follow Christ but in whom there has been no regenerating work of the Holy Ghost....they come in with many ideas.
Calvin did a great work but by his mistake he opened a fissure in the church and it is one which the devil who eagerly watches for his opportunity has poured through as a flood and gained a beach head or a foothold inside the church by means of false doctrine and he has expanded his foothold with the Arminian "freewill" doctrine which only came in as a reaction against Calvin's "double" predestination. Freewill has a stranglehold on the church....that is what it was intended for.
The pure BIBLE doctrine of predestination and election is full of vigour and life and freedom and joy. It sets men and women FREE.
To glory I would say that it is important to be precise "God chose us in Him before the founding of the world"
It is not just pernicketyness, the choice was God's. It is because there are a vast majority now in the church who have themselves chosen Christ of their own supposed free will that is [certainly in my view] the very root and core of all that is wrong with western christianity. WHY?
Because people who suppose they have chosen Christ have chosen Him on THEIR terms. True and full salvation comes when we submit to the Lordship of Christ. That is we surrender to His sovereign will. But these good folk still have and maintain their own supposed freewill which is not freewill really but a will and mind at emnity with God....they are still in rebellion.
This is what is wrong, when God's word comes to them by whatever means it comes their "freewill" and their carnal minds rebel against it and fight against it.
Even when they read it in the bible, they will seek to twist and turn scriptures [and they will find teachers to help them do it] until it says something more to their liking.
Moreover it is those who suppose they have chosen to follow Christ who when the going gets a little tough if the all important work of the Holy Ghost has not been done in their hearts will chose to decide to follow Him no more.
Nobody is born again until Jesus comes fully to dwell in their hearts by the Holy Ghost. Now I am far from saying that those in the other camp do not have Christ or that they are unregenerate. But many slip into the church on the basis of having "made a decision" a freewill choice to follow Christ but in whom there has been no regenerating work of the Holy Ghost....they come in with many ideas.
Calvin did a great work but by his mistake he opened a fissure in the church and it is one which the devil who eagerly watches for his opportunity has poured through as a flood and gained a beach head or a foothold inside the church by means of false doctrine and he has expanded his foothold with the Arminian "freewill" doctrine which only came in as a reaction against Calvin's "double" predestination. Freewill has a stranglehold on the church....that is what it was intended for.
The pure BIBLE doctrine of predestination and election is full of vigour and life and freedom and joy. It sets men and women FREE.
Freewillery is BONDAGE.
To throw out "freewill" is to remove the very thing God demands of us. We must choose to accept or reject God, which is why God commands all men to repent. Again, it's our position IN CHRIST that makes all the difference. Are we to consider what man "supposes" or what God says? That's like looking at those who have never really been fully persuaded and claiming they have lost their salvation. We don't judge according to what we see around us, but by what God says is true.
We see that life and immortality come through the light of the Gospel.
2 Tim. 1:9-10
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Faith and belief of the TRUTH are the very means God uses to dispense His grace. The Gospel is the CALL of God.... our being "persuaded" is necessary for salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
We are partakers of His Promise IN CHRIST by the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to "make men see." All purposed for those IN CHRIST JESUS.
Eph. 3:6-11
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
God demands obedience, what part of obedience spells freewill to you?
Freewill is the deception that Satan perpetrated in the garden "you will be like God, knowing good and evil" it was a lie, what we got was not freewill but bondage to Satan whose voice we obeyed.
Tell me that you have not been BOUND to sin, tell me that you have freewill to live and not die. You were BOUND to death. Therefore before we came to Christ we were in bondage. This is all the language of Paul concerning our pre salvation condition. Before we can cry to God for salvation He must FIRST set us free to do so.
Now we are free to serve Christ, to turn back to freewill is to turn back to bondage which is where it will most certainly lead to....this IS the condition the western church is in [look around you and tell me it isn't so] church fellowships following their own free will instead of seeking God's perfect will for them individually and as fellowships.
This is why I say freewill doctrine is the devil's stranglehold upon the western church. It is a false doctrine. Yes we is saved but we are fallen away from seeking and doing God's perfect will for our lives.
This is the difference between choice and freewill....we do have a choice.
Slogan/motto:
Love all three trinities in my life.
Reputation:
September 11th, 2012, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
. . . the life of Jesus.
Apparently you can't conceive of Him having a freewill?
Would be difficult as it would pit God against himself. Had he not chosen the cross it would be like Mary saying "No" and I think God would "speak" again. We might be oblivious to former attempts to bring salvation for just such a reason. tWINs
PS I really think God's will was done this first time.
The hair in the left nostril of the Body of Christ that feels the Spirit come in and the Spirit go out.
I came not to do Mine own will but the will of Him who sent Me. This according to His manhood, according to His Deity it is as Splasher says.
I don't know who Splasher is. Ever hear of Oswald Chambers?
Who is he and how is what how is what you say he said, pertinent in this? Did Jesus have a freewill will or not? Was not obedience an issue with Him in that He could have disobeyed, done His own thing, just like Adam? Jesus learned obedience, did He not?
Slogan/motto:
Love all three trinities in my life.
Reputation:
September 11th, 2012, 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
I don't know who Splasher is. Ever hear of Oswald Chambers?
Who is he and how is what how is what you say he said, pertinent in this? Did Jesus have a freewill will or not? Was not obedience an issue with Him in that He could have disobeyed, done His own thing, just like Adam? Jesus learned obedience, did He not?
Splasher checking in. Look a couple posts up. tWINs
The hair in the left nostril of the Body of Christ that feels the Spirit come in and the Spirit go out.
That people spend so much time in hebrews does not trouble me but the reason for their doing so does they suck at it as at honey from a rock, mulling over reasons why Christians will be damned at the last.
I say Christ never learned disobedience. He knew no sin had no mind or inclination to it. He exercised choice in the matter, only He among men had the ability to choose after the fall, we all are not free but are bound, bound to sin and bound to die, if we are bound we cannot be at one and the same time be free can we? Choice is not freewill.
Choice is set before us by Another's will even God. He does not even give us the choice not to choose. The options are His and His alone according to His sovereign will and the blessing or penalties for whichever choice we make are His and His alone according to His sovereign will.
I have a sneaking suspicion that you believe you have never sinned-I hope I am wrong but if like me you are a sinner then I tell you it was not freewill which caused it but a will in bondage.
I have not been led of God to read O Chambers, I know he is a "holiness" teacher of the freewill camp. I read holiness from soulwinners in the Grace camp and have always been so led to and that very few of them.
[quote=bucksplasher;3208580]Would be difficult as it would pit God against himself.[/quote
Only if it is believed that God [the Word] did not subject Himself to the decisions made by Jesus__son of man__in which case Jesus could not have been the "second Adam" and therefore could not have died in our stead.
Quote:
Had he not chosen the cross it would be like Mary saying "No" and I think God would "speak" again. We might be oblivious to former attempts to bring salvation for just such a reason. tWINs
PS I really think God's will was done this first time.
"Nevertheless, not My will but yours be done". . . Jesus, the man.
He didn't choose the cross. He was obedient to the will of His Father, even unto death, i.e., going to the cross..Big difference. What do think Gethsemane was all about if not Him obtaining a fresh vision and the Joy of it all set before Him that ___prepared His heart`?
I am happy to being a sheepses. I have a WONDERFUL Shepherd, He calls me by name and goes before me and leads me in and out to rich pasture.
or he should have 
but that is very easy to do if you are not some great doctor of religion and all Europe is not hanging upon your every word. 
] that predestination and election is not taught in the bible in relation to salvation, that;s right, neccesarily we must be saved but the predestiny and election relate to BLESSING the world around us and not even only the church. It relates to LIFTING fallen mankind.
September 11th, 2012, 04:20 AM
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