Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
Most Dangerous City in America Fires Police -
September 30th, 2012, 01:40 AM
Camden NJ:
The police acknowledge that they have all but ceded these streets to crime, with murders on track to break records this year. And now, in a desperate move to regain control, city officials are planning to disband the Police Department.
The reason, officials say, is that generous union contracts have made it financially impossible to keep enough officers on the street. So in November, Camden, which has already had substantial police layoffs, will begin terminating the remaining 273 officers and give control to a new county force. The move, officials say, will free up millions to hire a larger, nonunionized force of 400 officers to safeguard the city, which is also the nation’s poorest.
Hardly a political battle of the last several years has been fiercer than the one over the fate of public sector unions. But Camden’s decision to remake perhaps the most essential public service for a city riven by crime underscores how communities are taking previously unimaginable steps to get out from under union obligations that built up over generations.
Though the city is solidly Democratic, the plan to put the Police Department out of business has not prompted the wide public outcry seen in the union battles in Chicago, Ohio or Wisconsin, in part because many residents have come to resent a police force they see as incompetent, corrupt and doing little to make their streets safe.
A police union has sued to stop the move, saying it is risking public safety on an “unproven” idea. But many residents, community groups and elected officials say that the city is simply out of money, out of options, out of patience....
....liberal sick time and family-leave policies have created an unusually high absentee rate: every day, nearly 30 percent of the force does not show up. (A typical rate elsewhere is in the single digits.)
“How do I go to the community and say ‘I’m doing everything I can to help you fight crime’ when some of my officers are working better hours than bankers?” the police chief, J. Scott Thomson, asked.
This is amazing to me.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
What is amazing is that the city council of Camden, like government entities all across America, Europe, and the world, continue to blame the people, the police, the unions, and anyone else they can think of for their own fiscal and civil irresponsibility. And what's even more amazing is that there are so many idiots among the general populace willing to believe their lies.
What is amazing is that the city council of Camden, like government entities all across America, Europe, and the world, continue to blame the people, the police, the unions, and anyone else they can think of for their own fiscal and civil irresponsibility. And what's even more amazing is that there are so many idiots among the general populace willing to believe their lies.
While it is true that our governments are fairly terrible at managing their fiscal affairs, it is equally true that unions have grown fr too greedy to be allowed to continue in their present incarnations. In the 70's and early 80's the unions destroyed the steel industry in this country. Recently Hostes declared bankruptcy because of they could not fulfill the union contract and owed the union pension fund 1-billion dollars. Now all those nice comfy union jobs will be lost because the company cannot afford to pay them. Unless you want to pay $5.00 for a Twinkie. The unions negotiated themselves right out of work.
The greatest threat to industry in this nation is unions.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Slogan/motto:
Never be haughty to the humble; never be humble to the haughty.
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 07:49 AM
How did they let it get that way in the first place? Unions are no more trustworthy than corporations. They exist only to advance the interests of their stakeholders. Necessary, maybe, but always to be watched and kept within boundaries.
Slogan/motto:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."
~UNKNOWN
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardofOz
Camden NJ:
The police acknowledge that they have all but ceded these streets to crime, with murders on track to break records this year. And now, in a desperate move to regain control, city officials are planning to disband the Police Department.
The title is wrong according to the lists I have seen unless something has changed or the new 2012 poll came out. Saint Louis is the "most dangersous/biggest crime city". http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...ngerous-cities Of course our thugs according to STLPD, were walking around with white t shirts and a number boldly written on it to brag about what #/murder they commited. This worked out great for a minute once the police caught on. Iguess even criminals want to be number 1 at something even if it is evil and debauchery.
STL is struggling under their Democrat controlled governement to fund Police pensions, wages, etc. and still trying to annex them into STL County to get at their tax dollars to fund their PD and FD.
East St. Louis, Illinois is finally imposing curfew laws on anyone under 17 after 10pm and during school hours. They initially tried to say anyone under 17 out after curfew or designated times AND wearing blue or red.....they threw out the "blue and red" after public outcry.
Blaming the public for mishandling of funds, ha! Is it the public's fault too that 30% of their officers do not show up for their shift? Suing the City that has no money is really going to help the financial situation by throwing those $ into a lawsuit. The article and the actions of ALL ivolved WOW. Just WOW.
While it is true that our governments are fairly terrible at managing their fiscal affairs, it is equally true that unions have grown fr too greedy to be allowed to continue in their present incarnations.
No, that actually is not true at all. That's just a big fat lie that corporate sponsored politicians and media blowhards have been spewing at us since the Reagan administration. And you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
Being a policeman in Camden N.J. would have to be one of the most dangerous and difficult jobs in all law enforcement. I don't know how much those men and women are being paid, but I am quite sure that it's no more than 75k or so a year. It's certainly not going to be as much as even a low level CEO or politician makes. And yet who is actually contributing more to the well being of society? Who is more necessary? Who is working harder and longer hours, and who risking more in their work?
The idea that these cops don't deserves every dollar they get, coming from politicians and their corporate cronies who really DON'T deserve most of what THEY get, is both outrageous and disgusting. If the Camden city council can't find the money to pay for their essential services like fire and police, they should be firing themselves, not the police. They make more money and they obviously are not doing their jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
In the 70's and early 80's the unions destroyed the steel industry in this country.
THAT WAS 40 YEARS AGO! And anyway, the unions didn't do that all by themselves. The mill owners and investors also did it by taking out the profits instead of reinvesting them in modernizing the plants. So when other countries started building new plants, American plants couldn't compete with them because we hadn't updated. (And in some cases those "foreign" plants were built by American investment.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
Recently Hostess declared bankruptcy because of they could not fulfill the union contract and owed the union pension fund 1-billion dollars. Now all those nice comfy union jobs will be lost because the company cannot afford to pay them. Unless you want to pay $5.00 for a Twinkie. The unions negotiated themselves right out of work.
These are mostly just more lies from the capitalists. They still want to take profits instead of modernize, because now they can get tax breaks to build new plants in other countries and exploit their cheap labor. They blame the unions but the truth is that they have no intention of paying ANY american workers ANY amount of money. They're just going to run the current plants into the ground and then build new ones out of the country. They don't want us to know that this is their plan, because it hurts their brand names, so they blame the unions. But it doesn't really have anything to do with the unions. It has to do with Americans wanting to be paid a living wage, and the capitalists not wanting to pay them anything, if they can get away with it.
The real problem here is that the nature of capitalism causes it to view everything and everyone as an impediment to it's one and only commercial goal: to maximize the monetary return on capital investment. The goal of capitalism is to exploit every aspect of commerce in the pursuit of maximum return on capital. Thus, the goal is to exploit the workers (and the environment, the community, the government, or anything else that impedes the maximization of profit) which means that the workers have to unite to fight against that exploitation. It's an inherently antagonistic system that breeds anger, resentment, frustration, and abuse on every side.
Stop blaming the unions. They are no better or worse than the greedy capitalists they were created to defend us against, or the greedy politicians who take their bribe money and then screw us, or the greedy customers who by cheap products that they know are being produced by slave labor in other countries, at the cost of our own jobs.
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
What is amazing is that the city council of Camden, like government entities all across America, Europe, and the world, continue to blame the people, the police, the unions, and anyone else they can think of for their own fiscal and civil irresponsibility. And what's even more amazing is that there are so many idiots among the general populace willing to believe their lies.
Who cares about blame. Fiscal facts are fiscal facts. If the police force is not doing its job (obviously true given the crime rate and number of officers who don't even show up to work), then the city should reallocate the funds more effectively.
If local governments are broke, action must be taken.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
Being a policeman in Camden N.J. would have to be one of the most dangerous and difficult jobs in all law enforcement. I don't know how much those men and women are being paid, but I am quite sure that it's no more than 75k or so a year. It's certainly not going to be as much as even a low level CEO or politician makes. And yet who is actually contributing more to the well being of society? Who is more necessary? Who is working harder and longer hours, and who risking more in their work?
This has nothing to do with it! You cannot just say "police in Camden deserve high pay because of the dangers of the job" without analyzing the fiscal realities of the city ledger. If paying them X number of dollars will lead to insolvency for the city ledger, then changes must be made. You cannot just raid the tax payer for more funds when the well runs dry. Should the most dangerous jobs be paid the most money regardless of what revenue it actually generates?!
A CEO can be paid based on what the company he/she is employed by can afford to pay! Likewise with employees of the state.
Not to mention the fact that the police in Camden are obviously incompetent. Why shouldn't they be relieved of their duty?
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Who cares about blame. Fiscal facts are fiscal facts. If the police force is not doing its job (obviously true given the crime rate and number of officers who don't even show up to work), then the city should reallocate the funds more effectively.
If local governments are broke, action must be taken.
If any officer isn't doing the job he/she is being paid to do, then they should be fired, and a new officer hired. This has nothing to do with the city's ability to pay for essential public services.
If the city can't pay for basic services, then the city council and the mayor should be fired and replaced, because they clearly are not doing their jobs, as making sure that the city has these essential public services is their most important responsibility.
So it does matter who is to blame, because that's who should be fired and replaced. But none of this is the fault of any unions, or of police officers wanting to get a decent salary and compensation package for doing hard, dangerous, and important (essential) work.
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
If any officer isn't doing the job he/she is being paid to do, then they should be fired, and a new officer hired. This has nothing to do with the city's ability to pay for essential public services.
Camden has a bigger problem. The entire force is ineffectual and the city cannot afford to pay what the union has negotiated in the long-term.
The problem is obviously bigger than just one or two officers. That's why they are firing the entire department in favor of a county law enforcement agency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
If the city can't pay for basic services, then the city council and the mayor should be fired and replaced, because they clearly are not doing their jobs, as making sure that the city has these essential public services is their most important responsibility.
Rather, they have looked at their budget, realized they have a fiscal crisis and began making responsible decision regarding the allocation of funds; where they should be spent and where money is being wasted.
They seem to have identified the police force as a money waster. They are ineffectual and therefore, overpaid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
So it does matter who is to blame, because that's who should be fired and replaced. But none of this is the fault of any unions, or of police officers wanting to get a decent salary and compensation package for doing hard, dangerous, and important (essential) work.
Even if the entire city council were to be fired, those replacing them would find themselves in the same fiscal mess as their predecessors. The blame game only goes so far....It solves nothing.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Slogan/motto:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."
~UNKNOWN
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderhund
I thought Flint, MI was the most dangerous city in America.
St. Louis, Missouri is the "most dangersous city" 2011. Has the 2012been released yet. The article says that Camden is on track to beat the records of last year. So much for positive thinking.
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
September 30th, 2012, 03:55 PM
What's better for the community, 273 unionized officers or 400 non unionized officers?
Seems a no-brainer
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
If any officer isn't doing the job he/she is being paid to do, then they should be fired, and a new officer hired. This has nothing to do with the city's ability to pay for essential public services.
If the city can't pay for basic services, then the city council and the mayor should be fired and replaced, because they clearly are not doing their jobs, as making sure that the city has these essential public services is their most important responsibility.
So it does matter who is to blame, because that's who should be fired and replaced. But none of this is the fault of any unions, or of police officers wanting to get a decent salary and compensation package for doing hard, dangerous, and important (essential) work.
Your still failing to see that the majority of govt and corporations are totally corrupt, well your seeing it but you think its correctable which it is not. This is not one lone dirty politician, its the entire nation, we are an entire nation of thugs, crooks and scoundrals.
The only way to avoid it is to be more cleaver than thoes that are attempting to steal from you, it really is the only way.
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