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Open View Theology The Open View teaches that God can change the future. He interacts with the flow of history and changes the outcome of the future as it unfolds by His decisions and actions. This forum is dedicated to the discussion of openness theology.

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What determines the Omniscience of God - October 5th, 2012, 05:58 PM

Is God totally omniscient or are there some things for which He does not have foreknowledge. If so, what?





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October 5th, 2012, 07:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
Is God totally omniscient or are there some things for which He does not have foreknowledge. If so, what?
God foreknows everything perfectly. If possibilities are real, God foreknows them as possibilities. Although God foreknows every choice I could possibly make--even my final choice--He doesn't know my final choice as fact until after the fact. He only foreknows my final choice as a possibility. However, since God foreknows all the choices I could possibly make, He is perfectly prepared for my actual choice to the same degree He would have been prepared for it had He foreknown my actual choice as fact.



   
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October 5th, 2012, 11:55 PM

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is not possible if libertarian free will is true (and it is).

So, God knows reality as it is correctly distinguishing possible, probable, actual/certain.

The other related issue is whether God experience eternal now timelessness or an endless duration of time. I would suggest the latter is true confirming that the future is not there yet to be know exhaustively as a certainty in relation to free will choices.





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They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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October 6th, 2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
Exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is not possible if libertarian free will is true (and it is).

So, God knows reality as it is correctly distinguishing possible, probable, actual/certain.

The other related issue is whether God experience eternal now timelessness or an endless duration of time. I would suggest the latter is true confirming that the future is not there yet to be know exhaustively as a certainty in relation to free will choices.
So you're saying that God does not know the choices that we will make?





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October 6th, 2012, 01:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
So you're saying that God does not know the choices that we will make?
I don't know how godrulz will answer, but the OV believes that God does know the choices we will make. However, He doesn't know them as fact.



   
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October 6th, 2012, 06:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
So you're saying that God does not know the choices that we will make?
He knows them when they are made as a certainty. Before this, they are possible/probable. I do not believe in exhaustive definite foreknowledge from eternity past nor Molinistic 'middle knowledge'/counterfactuals of freedom that would also lead to EDF. Determinism would make FK possible, but the choices would not be free.

God knows the past/present perfectly and the future at least as partially open/unsettled.





Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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October 6th, 2012, 06:24 PM

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Originally Posted by surrender View Post
I don't know how godrulz will answer, but the OV believes that God does know the choices we will make. However, He doesn't know them as fact.
Not all Open Theists agree that God knows all possible choices. You seem to be contradicting yourself. He either knows future choices as fact or there is an element of uncertainty. God does not know the future choices we will make in every detail. When He does know them, they will be known as settled facts. Predictability is still not certainty.





Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

"No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.
   
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October 6th, 2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
Is God totally omniscient or are there some things for which He does not have foreknowledge. If so, what?
What do you mean by 'knowledge'? For me, it's a house, for another a mansion, for another a residence, for another it's home, for others it's an address, for still others it's just a pile of bricks and mortar. For one, it's a death, for another a tragedy, for another an accident, for another a statistic, for another a problem, for another a God-send, for another a biological process. Who's right? I don't see how we can make big assertions about what God knows without first getting a realistic picture of what knowledge is in the first place.





Total Misanthropy.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
(The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

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AcultureWarrior: It really doesn't matter what I think,
Jason: I don't care what kind of fact I got wrong.
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October 6th, 2012, 06:57 PM

God foreknew His people Israel, whom He has not cast away. Romans 11:2 (KJV). We know this at least, as revealed from scripture.

I believe the question is what does God not know, in terms of knowledge of the future. In the OP, the word "omniscience" is used, with an identification of the word "foreknew" to be involved in the discussion.

I have answered with what I know God foreknew. In the KJV, the word "foreknew" does not elsewhere appear.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
What do you mean by 'knowledge'? For me, it's a house, for another a mansion, for another a residence, for another it's home, for others it's an address, for still others it's just a pile of bricks and mortar. For one, it's a death, for another a tragedy, for another an accident, for another a statistic, for another a problem, for another a God-send, for another a biological process. Who's right? I don't see how we can make big assertions about what God knows without first getting a realistic picture of what knowledge is in the first place.
I guess the easiest way to say it would be, does God know all things.





He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

Jim Elliot
   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
I guess the easiest way to say it would be, does God know all things.
I believe that would be omniscience, which is perhaps different from the idea and concept of foreknowledge.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I believe that would be omniscience, which is perhaps different from the idea and concept of foreknowledge.
Omniscience is limited by what is knowable. The future is inherently not knowable in the same way the past and present are. God does have foreknowledge, but it is not exhaustive like His knowledge of the past/present is.





Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

"No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.
   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
Not all Open Theists agree that God knows all possible choices.
Why wouldn't He?

Quote:
You seem to be contradicting yourself. He either knows future choices as fact or there is an element of uncertainty.
The parts of the future He has settled, He knows them as settled. The parts He leaves open, He knows them as open.

Quote:
God does not know the future choices we will make in every detail. When He does know them, they will be known as settled facts.
I agree.



   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
I guess the easiest way to say it would be, does God know all things.
The easiest answer is to say God knows all things knowable.



   
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October 6th, 2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
Omniscience is limited by what is knowable. The future is inherently not knowable in the same way the past and present are. God does have foreknowledge, but it is not exhaustive like His knowledge of the past/present is.
I submit that we should consider the Biblical usage of the word "foreknew", which is different, but might inform our "Theological" view.





John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB - then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Colossians 1:13 NASB - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Romans 5:10 NASB - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 NASB - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Proverbs 2:20 NASB - So you will walk in the way of good men And keep to the paths of the righteous.
   
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