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Thumbs up Protestant Theologian converts to Catholicism - October 9th, 2012, 07:27 PM

In his article "I Fought the Church and the Church Won," Jason Stellman, a Reformed theologian with an MDiv from Westminster Seminary California, explains his slow road in coming to understand that Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide don't hold up under scrutiny. The article concludes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stellman
And make no mistake, the Catholic Church is disruptive. It is audacious and confrontational, sucker-punching and line-in-the-sand drawing. Like the Lion Aslan from C.S. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia, it is not a tame Church, and will make no promise not to devour and discomfit its subjects as they partake of its life-giving water, causing them to constantly bend the knee and cede their worldly wisdom to the foolishness of the cross. In the words of Aslan to Jill, who expressed fear about letting down her guard to drink from the water by which he stood, “There are no other streams.” Or the words of Peter to Jesus when asked if the Twelve would forsake Him because of His difficult and demanding message, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

The Catholic Church, wistfully alluring? Hardly. Tidy and tame? Not by a long shot, for once discovered it demands that the seeker relinquish the one thing above all others that offers him confidence, namely, his own autonomy. In fact, submitting oneself to the authority of the Catholic Church is the most harrowing experience a person will ever endure, which is why the suggestion that converts from Geneva to Rome are simply opting for a feel-good, fairy-tale romance betraying an “over-realized eschatology” and desire to skip blissfully down the yellow-brick road to heaven, utterly trivializes the entire ordeal.

In a word, I fought the Church, and the Church won. And what it did was beat me, but it didn’t draw me, entice me, or lure me by playing upon some deep, latent psychosis or desire on my part for something Protestantism just couldn’t provide. Catholicism went from being so obviously ridiculous that it wasn’t even worth bothering to oppose, to being something whose claims were so audacious that I couldn’t help opposing them. But what it never was, was attractive, and in many ways it still isn’t.

But what Catholicism is, I have come to discover, is true.

-zip





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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October 10th, 2012, 12:26 AM

He fought the church because of theological doubts. He never once indicates that the spirit of God confirmed the truthfulness for him - he seems to have just theologically exhausted himself and therefore submitted himself the authority of the RCC. I am not Sola Scriptura. That doesn't mean that I will ever convert to the RCC. It's adoption of pagan times and practices greatly alarms me. While I realize that the Bishop of Rome has disavowed the office of Pontifex maximus, I believe it's history in your church presents it with great problems of maintaining the needed distance from paganism.



   
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October 10th, 2012, 02:10 AM

The guy obviously isn't born again.

His faith was obviously in an institution rather than in Christ Himself.

Furthermore, he contradicts himself: he says that he wasn't attracted to any warm fuzzy ideals, stating that rather the RCC is quite brutal in its requirements. But that is in fact evidence of his being attracted to warm fuzzy ideals, for he sees himself on the stage of martrydom and voluntary humility, that which Paul at Col 2:18 warns us to steer clear of.

So he's a romantic, and his spirituality simply romanticism in spiritual garb. Which stands to reason: the words "Rome" and "romantic", have the same root.



   
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Post October 10th, 2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
His faith was obviously in an institution rather than in Christ Himself.
Merely a False Dilemma Fallacy on your part. (See, for example, Mt. 10:40; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 9:4-5.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+





"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
   
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October 10th, 2012, 06:49 PM

There are an awful lot of seminarians that are pretty messed up.









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October 10th, 2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
His faith was obviously in an institution rather than in Christ Himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform View Post
Merely a False Dilemma Fallacy on your part. (See, for example, Mt. 10:40; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 9:4-5.)
Yep. See also: Matthew 18:17, John 13:20, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 John 4:6, Galatians 4:14, etc.



   
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October 10th, 2012, 09:29 PM

From a catholic website. With my addition for the slow. Like brainless morons.






Jesus saves completely.

Titus 1:10-11

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/
   
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October 11th, 2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmar View Post
There are an awful lot of seminarians that are pretty messed up.
The corrections are great to see.





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

-Falsity of OSAS
   
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October 11th, 2012, 07:03 PM

Cruciform,

His faith was obviously in an institution rather than in Christ Himself.
Merely a False Dilemma Fallacy on your part. (See, for example, Mt. 10:40; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 9:4-5.)
What you mean is "false dichotomy".

No it isn't. And the verses you quote you quote by virtue of begging the question, so they are of no evidential value for you.

We are in the church because we have a relationship with Christ, not vice versa as you think.

For the man proposes to the woman, not the other way around. And Christ is the man, and mankind the woman.

So you don't get to declare you are married to Christ because you are in the church, but declare you are in the church because you are married to Christ.

And if married to Christ, then it is too late to pick and choose whether you're in a particular church or not: you are the very church by definition. Which necessarily precludes institutionalism. If one becomes born again on a space station on Mars, one is in the church.

So "the church" is simply a group term for "all those who are born again".

And so you are a simpleton who thinks he's intelligent. This site seems to be full of such self-considered MENSA members.



   
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October 11th, 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
In his article "I Fought the Church and the Church Won," Jason Stellman, a Reformed theologian with an MDiv from Westminster Seminary California, explains his slow road in coming to understand that Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide don't hold up under scrutiny. The article concludes:




-zip
Quote:
Originally Posted by James White
Immature Christians are often troubled by conversion stories like Jason's. Look! A minister joined Rome! Look, another joined Islam! Another became a Mormon! Look how many have left the faith and become agnostic or even atheist! There must be something wrong! Such immaturity is borne out of an ignorance of the context of the early Church. The little epistle of First John shows us that even during the days when the Apostles still lived, apostasy was rampant. Opposition was everywhere. False teachers flourished. And the young Christian body could see, out there in the fellowships of the anti-Christs, those who had once stood with them and made a profession of faith. Has Christ failed? Is the Gospel without power? No, the problem here is a false assumption: that it is God's intention for the church to ever live in ease, without opposition, without false brethren and false teachers to battle, without persecution from the world, and tribulation within. No one who seriously reads the NT literature would come to that conclusion, but sadly, that is the idea many have. John told the young believers,
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19)
source




   
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Post October 11th, 2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
What you mean is "false dichotomy".
No, I meant exactly what I said, although the false dilemma that you've set up does lead to a false dichotomy.

Quote:
No it isn't.
Yeah. It is.

Quote:
And the verses you quote you quote by virtue of begging the question, so they are of no evidential value for you.
What you mean is that the verses I cited actually support my position, and you don't happen to like it. That's perfectly understandable.

Quote:
We are in the church because we have a relationship with Christ, not vice versa as you think.
One begins a relationship with Jesus through the sacrament of Baptism, which the Christian faith has always believed and taught is one's initiation into Christ's Body, the Church. Again, to attempt to separate Christ (the Head) from his Church (the Body)---thus, in effect, "decapitating" Christ---is to engage in False Dilemma/Dichotomy Fallacies.

Quote:
So "the church" is simply a group term for "all those who are born again".
Unfortunately, your Protestant-invented ecclesiology fails entirely to comport with the authoritative doctrine of Christ's historic Church as taught by that Church from the very beginning. For example, see here, here, and here.

Quote:
And so you are a simpleton who thinks he's intelligent.


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+





"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
   
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October 12th, 2012, 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
From a catholic website.
What website? A link might be useful.





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

-Falsity of OSAS
   
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October 12th, 2012, 03:24 PM

Jason Stellman proved to be a heretic and an enemy of the Reformed beliefs, through his defense of the Federal Vision movement plaguing our Presbyterian churches.

For one, I am glad to see him depart. The RCC is welcome to this trouble-maker.

Nang





"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”


. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
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October 12th, 2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
A link might be useful.
In what way?





Jesus saves completely.

Titus 1:10-11

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/
   
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October 13th, 2012, 01:33 AM

Cruciform,


We are in the church because we have a relationship with Christ, not vice versa as you think.
One begins a relationship with Jesus through the sacrament of Baptism
Er .... we are in a relationship with Christ when we are in a relationship with Christ. And thus you reveal you are not actually in a relationship with Christ, but with a mere concept.

You are defeated here.







Again, to attempt to separate Christ (the Head) from his Church (the Body)---thus, in effect, "decapitating" Christ---is to engage in False Dilemma/Dichotomy Fallacies
You don’t know what you’re doing when it comes to logic, let alone theology.

You are simply begging the question here again, framing your idea that one is in Christ by being in the church, as premise.

For although you use words here which suggest Christ is head, you in fact turn Christ on His head and place the Body on top. And thus we constantly witness that your ideology is decidedly ‘woman-on-top’.

I have told you that the man proposes to the woman, not the other way around. So it is up to Christ as to who it is that He marries, not us. We don't get to force Christ to marry us by joining an organisation and jumping through its hoops, but are only married to Him when He reveals Himself to us on a personal level through the Holy Ghost. In other words, when we are born again.







You are soundly defeated: one is in a relationship with Christ when one is in a relationship with Christ, and that is that. At that point, one is part of the Body of Christ which is the church. This can happen on Mars.

You think to assure yourself that you are in Christ by virtue of the fact that others have adopted the same scheme as you, and in great numbers: you are merely democratically in Christ.

But deep down inside you will know that you don't have a personal relationship with the living individual spirit of Christ Jesus. You have merely a hologram. Which means you're on your way to hell.




Last edited by Colossians; October 13th, 2012 at 01:56 AM..
   
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