TheologyOnline, religion, politics, forum
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Religion
Reload this Page Cain & Abel - The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture
Religion Discuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#1) Old
chair chair is offline
Over 3000 post club

 


Reputation:
chair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peers
Cain & Abel - The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture - October 31st, 2012, 04:49 AM

He presents Cain as the obedient son, Abel as the somewhat rebellious innovator- but the one that God really loves.

Watch it- it is only a few minutes. I'd like to hear what folks here think of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ojhZPiGsRs



   
Reply With Quote
  (#2) Old
csuguy csuguy is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 csuguy's Avatar

 


Reputation:
csuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peers
csuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 05:10 AM

Uh... interesting. That's certainly a new take on things, but it is also completely contradictory to what scripture teaches - both for this story and for the bible as a whole.

In the story, God favors Abel and says to Cain:
“Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Clearly - God had provided them with some kind of instruction in the past concerning sacrifices, and Cain was not following these. Contrary to the video - Cain is the innovator here, while Abel is doing as expected of him.

Furthermore, it is easy to find numerous examples in the scriptures where this author's teaching clearly does not work. Consider Jeremiah for instance. Again and again, he warned the people to repent or disaster would falll - but they refused to listen. Again and again he told them how they might escape their punishment - if they would but listen and do as God commanded them - but they refused to listen, to their destruction. God was not looking for innovators to ignore his commands and come up with their own way of doing things - rather, he wants his people to do as he commands and wills.

Also, doing as God commands and wills is not about being a simple minded slave - as this author presents. God encourages us to study and to reason with him, to seek truth. This author has got everything on its head and his book sounds like a waste of time.





If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#3) Old
chair chair is offline
Over 3000 post club

 


Reputation:
chair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
ץץץ
Also, doing as God commands and wills is not about being a simple minded slave - as this author presents. God encourages us to study and to reason with him, to seek truth. This author has got everything on its head and his book sounds like a waste of time.
I think you are missing his point. He is not saying the Bible is promoting disobedience. He is saying that the Bible is against blind obedience.

What do you mean by: "God encourages us to study and to reason with him" What is 'reason' here? Do you mean questioning God?



   
Reply With Quote
  (#4) Old
PureX PureX is offline
Silver Member
 PureX's Avatar

 


Reputation:
PureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 06:52 AM

For men to sit together and contend with each other over the meaning of these stories, is the reason these stories were created, and eventually written down. They aren't intended to have one pat 'answer', or lesson to teach. They were intended to cause us to have to seriously contemplate the idea we hold of "God", and especially of our place relative to our God. The bible was never about giving us answers. It was always about getting us to ask ourselves and each other certain kinds of questions. This is what the Hebrews meant by their God being the "living God". Their God had to be grappled and contended with on a daily basis. Theirs was a God of relationship: between ourselves and each other, and between ourselves and the divine mystery we call "God".



   
Reply With Quote
  (#5) Old
bybee bybee is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 bybee's Avatar

 




Reputation:
bybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peers
bybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peersbybee is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 07:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX View Post
For men to sit together and contend with each other over the meaning of these stories, is the reason these stories were created, and eventually written down. They aren't intended to have one pat 'answer', or lesson to teach. They were intended to cause us to have to seriously contemplate the idea we hold of "God", and especially of our place relative to our God. The bible was never about giving us answers. It was always about getting us to ask ourselves and each other certain kinds of questions. This is what the Hebrews meant by their God being the "living God". Their God had to be grappled and contended with on a daily basis. Theirs was a God of relationship: between ourselves and each other, and between ourselves and the divine mystery we call "God".
This is a wise and thoughtful response.
God, The Mystery of mysteries, is approachable by His own choice.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#6) Old
csuguy csuguy is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 csuguy's Avatar

 


Reputation:
csuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peers
csuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peerscsuguy is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chair View Post
I think you are missing his point. He is not saying the Bible is promoting disobedience. He is saying that the Bible is against blind obedience.
That is what his video presents. He attempts to flip the traditional conception of Cain and Abel - where Abel is the obedient one and Cain the rebellious one. Instead he presents Cain as a the obedient son and Abel as completely disregarding what God commanded and doing his own thing - being a lazy shepherd. For his 'ingenuity' Abel is favored.

Quote:
What do you mean by: "God encourages us to study and to reason with him" What is 'reason' here? Do you mean questioning God?
I mean we are encouraged to seek understanding and wisdom, to seek the truth. We are to wrestle with the scriptures and God's commands - not to overthrow them - but to understand them. Biblical figures like Moses even reasoned with God directly and tried to change his mind and win his favor.





If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

Last edited by csuguy; October 31st, 2012 at 08:10 PM..
   
Reply With Quote
  (#7) Old
g_n_o_s_i_s g_n_o_s_i_s is offline
Over 1000 post club
 g_n_o_s_i_s's Avatar

 


Reputation:
g_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticedg_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticedg_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticedg_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticedg_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticedg_n_o_s_i_s has been getting noticed
October 31st, 2012, 10:16 AM

I love how the story starts with an Adam eating an apple and ends with Steve Jobs... That was great. I always had the feeling YHWH liked those who amused him, not necessarily those who obeyed him.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#8) Old
Stripe Stripe is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 Stripe's Avatar

 




Reputation:
Stripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peers
Stripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chair View Post
He presents Cain as the obedient son, Abel as the somewhat rebellious innovator- but the one that God really loves.

Watch it- it is only a few minutes. I'd like to hear what folks here think of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ojhZPiGsRs


Seriously? You think this is serious?

chair.





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

Nominate POTYs. See this thread.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#9) Old
chair chair is offline
Over 3000 post club

 


Reputation:
chair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peerschair is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post


Seriously? You think this is serious?

chair.
Go play with your emoticon toys somewhere else.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#10) Old
Stripe Stripe is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 Stripe's Avatar

 




Reputation:
Stripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peers
Stripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peersStripe is well respected by his peers
October 31st, 2012, 11:48 PM



The man who claims ownership over the Hebrew scriptures as part of his national heritage - reduced to a cartoon theology.





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

Nominate POTYs. See this thread.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#11) Old
ideogenous_mover ideogenous_mover is offline
Over 750 post club
 ideogenous_mover's Avatar

 


Reputation:
ideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticed
November 1st, 2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s View Post
I always had the feeling YHWH liked those who amused him, not necessarily those who obeyed him.
at some points my reading of the bible and contemplation of what God within it has done has lent itself to similar thoughts.

What arguments do we have against the idea that God created us purely for his own amusement ultimately?



   
Reply With Quote
  (#12) Old
PureX PureX is offline
Silver Member
 PureX's Avatar

 


Reputation:
PureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peersPureX is well respected by his peers
November 1st, 2012, 01:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ideogenous_mover View Post
What arguments do we have against the idea that God created us purely for his own amusement ultimately?
... That we aren't all that amusing?



   
Reply With Quote
  (#13) Old
ideogenous_mover ideogenous_mover is offline
Over 750 post club
 ideogenous_mover's Avatar

 


Reputation:
ideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticed
November 1st, 2012, 01:42 PM

Well chair, this causes me to wonder a bit. I mean I've read the bible cover to cover, but I've never read the talmud or anything like that, I don't know if that's where some of these interpretations come from or if it or if it is just freethinkers and stuff like that.

anyway, this is interesting when they talk about the shepard analogy..... I mean just what originally was a shepard.. He was an innovator right? A guy who refused to have a direct literal interpretation of Genesis 3:19. He "pushed back" on that one, he sort of rebelled against it, or well, tried to deal with it in a different way by making it as easy as possible.

Never quite thought of it like that.... so now I'm thinking that whenever there is an easier way to get things done, the human race should always pick that over an antiquated method? I guess that's the lesson of the thing, or.... as far as I can take it without thinking a lot more about it.




Last edited by ideogenous_mover; November 1st, 2012 at 11:27 PM..
   
Reply With Quote
  (#14) Old
ideogenous_mover ideogenous_mover is offline
Over 750 post club
 ideogenous_mover's Avatar

 


Reputation:
ideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticedideogenous_mover has been getting noticed
November 1st, 2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX View Post
... That we aren't all that amusing?
but that he might seem to favor those who are. The inherent law of this seems to be that God would need to create a lot of minds to get a few that are amusing.



   
Reply With Quote
  (#15) Old
Dena Dena is offline
Jewish Humanist
 Dena's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Dena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peersDena is well respected by his peers
November 1st, 2012, 02:03 PM

Someone recently recommended his book to me and I've put it on my "to read" list. It sounds like it might be pretty interesting.



   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2014 TheologyOnLine



Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.