[Redeemed-777]

Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own
because he is …

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7

-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3

-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Ephesians 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18

-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

Therefore, man is totally at God’s mercy re: whether he/she goes to Heaven or Hell.

[Cross Reference]

More mixed up argument swimming around in a mind full of mush!

[tderose]

Interesting. I don't think there is much debate that the Bible and the church believe that it is God who initiates the quest and supplies the energy and direction for the completion of the journey. I think, however, and I am not 100% convinced that man must submit. He can not be saved against his will.

[john w]

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Calvinist/Clavinist version:


I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live, even though you poor drones that I created are unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on your own, and I, the LORD God, therefore, like above, am an idiot for even commanding you to do so, and including it in the book.

[Redeemed-777]

The #1 reason for the OT Law of Moses was ...

to PROVE to everyone that man is totally unable to satisfy God, i.e. to live free from sin,
and is therefore in dire need for something (or someone) to save him, die in his place, etc.!

News Flash! ... Man is born with an inherited sin nature ... and he MUST sin!

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The #1 reason for the OT Law of Moses was ...

to PROVE to everyone that man is totally unable to satisfy God, i.e. to live free from sin,
and is therefore in dire need for something (or someone) to save him, die in his place, etc.!

News Flash! ... Man is born with an inherited sin nature ... and he MUST sin!

NO HE MUST NOT! He doesn't have to sin. Many folk were righteous folk without any indwelling___like Abraham, who without any Truth INDWELLING him, obeyed God. He obeyed strictly from his human ability in doing so___and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

[john w]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The #1 reason for the OT Law of Moses was ...

to PROVE to everyone that man is totally unable to satisfy God, i.e. to live free from sin,
and is therefore in dire need for something (or someone) to save him, die in his place, etc.!

News Flash! ... Man is born with an inherited sin nature ... and he MUST sin!

That is not your argument, i.e., there is a difference between "no ability to choose, inability to choose," and "inability to satisfy God, i.e. to live free from sin,and is therefore in dire need for something (or someone) to save him, die in his place, etc.!"

You present a false dichotomy.

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own
because...

spiritual life (salvation) needs to exist in order for him to choose it; and it exists solely because of what Christ has done.

Also, there was one item not on your list:

Faith.

We are saved through faith.

[God's Truth]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own
because he is …

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7

-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3

-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Ephesians 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18

-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

Therefore, man is totally at God’s mercy re: whether he/she goes to Heaven or Hell.

NONE of those scriptures say we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him; in fact, after learning of him is when and how we get faith.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The #1 reason for the OT Law of Moses was ...

to PROVE to everyone that man is totally unable to satisfy God,

I don't think you have a scripture reference to support you. However, it is explained by Paul that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. In other words it kept people in the right way and pointed to the righteousness that was to come by faith. (Gal 3:24)

So this does seem to contradict you.

And again, the law doesn't in fact prove to everyone that man is unable to satisfy God because the law only applied to the people of Israel. What Paul says about it is that keeping the law doesn't lead to righteousness. Which is not the same thing at all as proving that man is unable to satisfy God. Paul argues that Abraham was indeed able to satisfy God through his faith, as were many others.

So it seems that you are reading monsieur Calvin into the Bible. I suggest that you just quote Calvin rather than the Bible as that would save a lot of time and then we won't have to go through the tiresome and often antagonistic process of pointing out how you read into or otherwise distort the plain meaning of the scriptures. At least if we just discuss the writings of Calvin, we can have a civil discussion about what we all believe.

[Redeemed-777]

Soaking Wet,

The Israelites were God’s chosen people, and were given every blessing, advantage, and etc.
They were man’s representatives … and they failed miserably.

IMO, some OT saints being obedient to God is rather different than believing in the “foolish” gospel.

You are invited to present your verses and I will show how people get saved via this formula …

preaching >> God's gift of faith is given >> spiritual revelation >> BELIEF >> turn to the Lord in faith >>
veil removed about many spiritual things

[john w]

Eph. 1 KJV

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Order:heard.... trust/believed.........sealed


Calvinist/Clavinist order:"zapped"(to be able to believe)/sealed......heard.....trust/believed

[Desert Reign]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The Israelites were ... man’s representatives …

Reference? Or just something you made up? As I said, if this is something from Calvin, just say so.

and they failed miserably.

At what? At being man's representatives?

At being God's chosen people? If so, then it was God who failed because all they needed to do to be chosen was - well - to be chosen.

IMO, some OT saints being obedient to God is rather different than believing in the “foolish” gospel.

Thank you for giving your opinion about that. Which is an interesting discussion. Paul for example also stated that we who believe in Christ should have faith like that of the ancients. (Heb 11:2; Heb 11:16)

You are invited to present your verses and I will show how people get saved via this formula …

People aren't saved by a formula.

preaching >> God's gift of faith is given >> spiritual revelation >> BELIEF >> turn to the Lord in faith >>
veil removed about many spiritual things

I suspect you missed out the first steps in the formula:
God predestines certain individuals to salvation >> God causes certain people to preach to said individuals >> God gives faith to said individuals, etc.

That's right isn't it?

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The #1 reason for the OT Law of Moses was ...

to PROVE to everyone that man is totally unable to satisfy God, i.e. to live free from sin,

Why do you think God hated His chosen people that much?

Originally Posted by Redeemed-777

The Israelites were God’s chosen people, and were given every blessing, advantage, and etc.
They were man’s representatives … and they failed miserably.

If God chose them to be damned to hell by giving them the law in order to prove that man is totally unable to satisfy God, then they succeeded, didn't they?

[Desert Reign]

In fact R777, let me ask you a question.

I wrote

God predestines certain individuals to salvation >> God causes certain people to preach to said individuals >> God gives faith to said individuals, etc.

If this is so (I assume that is what you believe or something close to it), then why doesn't God just give these chosen individuals the faith directly; why doesn't he just save them instantly?

I will give you my hypothetical answer to this question.

My answer is that God did it this way in order to give people the impression that they were freely choosing for him themselves and to actually conceal the fact that it was really not their faith in him at all that was instrumental in their being saved but his own predetermined choice that was behind it all.

My question to you is this: would you blame me for holding such an opinion?

If you would, then can you give me a better reason why God would do all that when he could have done it more simply?

If you wouldn't, then how would you justify what God has done?