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"Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" - March 3rd, 2013, 01:25 AM


Focus scriptures from John 21


Did some research on the,"Do you love me more then these" because it was still not resting easy in my mind after a friend explained his pastor was saying the "these" was referring to Peter's fishing gear and occupation. This is in connection to Peter going fishing when the Lord appeared to them, as Peter may have been returning to making a living from fishing rather then doing the Lord's work. Though I've concluded that I disagree with his pastor's interpretation of this passage, I believe he may possibly be right in assuming Peter had decided to return to his old line of work, but can no longer use the "these" to confirm that.

I really started looking into agapaˇ the word used in this passage, the verb form of agape, which is a noun as in stating God is love. I began reading all passages using agapaˇ and delved into the Greek definitions and how they were used. Mostly to get a better understanding of "to love".

Though we often know it as an unconditional love (mostly in regards to God loving us despite our sin, or us loving our enemy), this is only one representation of this kind of love in action, and is not it's primary focus in defining it. In general agapaˇ was also used in secular Greek texts which scholars use when rendering definitions, though New Testament writers have adopted the word in a way to reveal one side of agape in action in regards to believers, agapaˇ primarily means "to prefer", or to reveal a preference for someone or thing, which is literally what agape means, simply preference.

So it's basically about making a choice, and in the NT it's revealed holistically in respects to moral choices, even though this loving is revealed in some passages for worldly ways, for the Christian it is the choice that aligns with God's will, which would be the way Christians would look at agape as the noun, as in being God's preference, or what He prefers.

Most often when it's used we can see it as someone preferring and choosing one thing over the other, and then revealing that preference through certain actions. So as in God loving us (us being the preference), He reveals it by sending His Son, Christ loving us is revealed at calvary, and when we love our enemy, we manifest it by praying for and blessing them. You can see the preferring (agapaˇ) can also be used for worldly things as in money, it says we can not love (agapaˇ) both God and money, and we reveal this choice, as it says in the scriptures, by serving one or the other (the action)(Matthew 6:24).

For the Christian, for us to properly love both God and others, it's a response to God first loving us, and Him empowering and working through us to do so (1 John 4:11-12). So unconditional loving, is just one form that agapaˇ takes on in action, and is not entirely what defines it, though it's inherent when used by the Christian and God. It was really interesting to open up this word further and now get a better feel for it.

Anyways back to that passage, I was reading different well known biblical commentators on that verse, and how it fits within the big picture. Most agree that it is left ambiguous in interpreting the original Greek, but the consensus, and as I now understand it myself as the best explanation, is the "these" Christ is referring to, is not a love Peter has for something else (the fishing gear), but as a comparative to the other disciples love for Christ.

As in, do you Peter love me with a greater emphasis then the other disciples? He's using this as in a way by recalling and correcting Peter's earlier zealousness, that he would indeed go and die for Him, and even if everyone else fell away, he would not, and Christ responded, will you really, then reveals that he will disown him. So essentially He's asking Peter, what do you have to say now about this greater love that you said you would have. I believe it was humbling, knowing that he had not lived up to his own claims, to being the one who would never forsake Him.

Peter responds with phileˇ, and I take this as Peter saying even though I haven't loved you with agapao, he's still representing that his affection for Jesus is genuine.

I researched phileˇ, and its more of a great fondness and affection for one you would regard as a friend or family, from an emotional attachment, a kinship. Understandable when it's also translated into kiss, as in displaying affection (not sexual, which would be derived from eros another Grrek word we translate into love, which is where we also get erotic). We see this word used also as in "the disciple Jesus loved", God chastises the one He loves, the way Lazarus was regarded to Jesus as the one He loved.

Then the second time. Jesus asks Him, knowing it is now clear that Peter's love does not surpass the others, He asks him again if he loves him, but no longer adds the "more then these". Remember this agapao is the preference defined by action, where Peter's first actions had failed in the denial. Peter can not rightly respond with the same agapao, but again he responds with phileˇ, stating this is at least true of where his heart resides in regards to his affections for Christ.

Now in these responses, Jesus does not simply reply to Peter's saying I love you, that it's okay, I accept that, or I know you do, but follows up with a command, which in essence will prove or affirm his love for Christ. Again the preference will be revealed by action, by Peter actively obeying His command to be this pastor(shepherd) of these new Christians(the flock), to feed, guide and protect them. In doing so Peter will reveal this agapao love he has for Christ.

The last question of Peter, which oddly enough, Christ now uses phileˇ instead of agapao when He says "Do you love me?". So he would be vocalizing the same word Peter had used each time in response. Peter now hurt responds to Him, (my interpretation) though I have not proved it in action like the other love agapao, at least with phileˇ, you know all things, and you know that I have this type of love for you.

Additional reasons as to why I'm going with this interpretation, is for one, I believe it more closely adheres with the overarching context of Peter's denial and now his affirmation, then tying it into what he was currently doing, meaning fishing.

Secondly, I don't believe they were any longer near the boat, fishing gear, or the camp so to speak. Because it says before they converse, "When they had finished eating" and then when they finished discussing these things it reveals that Him and Peter are walking, and John was following further behind. As it says "Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them." So I believe that they went for a walk after breakfast and that the fishing gear would not be apparently in front of them, as to be the focal point, when Jesus questioned him, do you love me more then these. So my best guess is that Peter would follow the reasoning, and know what he was referring to, as it being a love greater then the other disciples.

I know this may be long but thanks to those who took the time to read it. Of course this is only where I've ended up for my conclusion, but in no way does it solidify what actually the "these" were that He was referring to, because it just doesn't clearly say so.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
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March 3rd, 2013, 05:24 AM

Greetings,

I enjoyed reading your thoughts very much, they reminded me, some times I kind of loose sight of, the incredible detail in every word of scripture and the depth of what may seem simple details.

I spent some time reading your post carefully and it encouraged me to shoot out the front door where the sun is shiny (6pm in Perth AU) and re-read chapter 21 of John....to my thoughts haveing just come in from the front porch.

The chapter begins with the 7 disciples in the boat trying to catch a load of fish through the night, with dawn approaching still no luck...with morning now breaking they hear the voice of this stranger on shore, about 100 metres away, yelling out "Little children, do you have any food?"

This reminds me that we are little children yet to grow into our full stature in Christ, in terms of knowledge and intimacy, Jesus who is the true bread of life, asks further "do you have any food?"...knowing they were standing in an empty boat...signifying their personal need for food and not having the resources themselves to supply their need.

They reply "I'm sorry man no fish today" (thats a kid creole song popped into my head)

Jesus instructs them to throw the net to the Right side of the boat and they immediately catch a massive load of big fish. John the disciple Jesus loved said to Peter "It is the Lord"

This denotes His intimacy with John and johns sensitivity to Jesus presence in His actions

I love this bit...Peter covers up and THROWS himself into the water obviously to get ashore and into the presence of Jesus asap...what a crazy guy I just love that manic commitment and immediacy he displays here.

Peter approaches Jesus who has already prepared food waiting, fish and bread. The other disciples have arrived now at shore with the boat dragging the net behind. They make their way into the presence of Jesus, Peter already having arrived.

The Lord knows our needs before we ask, He knows we are famished and has true food already prepared for us, and He instigates our feasting by proposing by way of invitation in a voice which catches our attention and elicits a response in us as only the voice of the Shepherd can...some times we will throw ourselves forward, sometimes we will creep in with the tide...but we will and do arrive at shore to meet with our Master

Having arrived at the small fire, nice and warm in the morning, with the beautiful aroma of crispy fish sizzling Jesus suggests they bring some of their catch to supplement what He has provided...I like this bit to...crazy Peter marches straight down and drags the massive haul ashore by himself...Peter is clearly a man of action and strong in action.

Jesus reminds us here not only of our need of the nourishment that only the True Bread Of Life can supply but also of the abundance we already have...if only we knew it...combining the two stashes of fish our abundance is increased and so it shall always be with the Good Shepherd of our souls...also signified is our increase in faith...HIS faith with our faith (which is HIS faith in us)...so the coffers are always full and that with excess.

Jesus asks them to come and eat - none of the disciples dare to question Him as to His identity...knowing who He is. This is now the third time Jesus was revealed to His disciples.

This signifies to me those times when you abandon yourself to His feeding and leading with that faith that walks not by sight...but just knows...knows that it is known...of Him and by Him

Then Jesus says "Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me more than these?"

Jesus calles him Simon son of Jonas which signifies to me that he has not been 'powered up' yet...which will occur later at Pentecost...there his name will become stronger kind of like Peter a son of God...not saying he isn't already...just that then it will be with power and authority of an Apostle...Where Jesus asks "more than these He makes enquiry into the realm of pridefulness and commitment...in equal measure...remember Peters denial was first built upon the firm foundation of his physical strength and prowess, he was a working man and was a powerful individual hauling the net full of fish ashore later by himself without breaking it signalling a steady pull and continuous movement..he confronted those who came to arrest Jesus in the garden with immediacy and prepared to use lethal force...relying on his personal strength and courage he made his way into the area where Jesus was taken to be interrogated...but when confronted by the mob, his internal doubt's concerning the Messiah? associated with the tumultuous scenes around him instigated a weakening of his resolve, he then imploded into denial to save his own life...this prideful dimension is raised in Jesus comment "more than these" ... also there is the theme of commitment intimated in the phrase..we are to love the Lord more than any other...He is to be first without equal...not first among equals...so there is an enquiry made into this area of unadulterated veneration and committed application of an entire life projecting ahead, with the prospect (knowledge in Jesus case) of a violent end, preceded by much persecution and vexation of spirit.

Peter says "Yes, Lord, You know that I love you"
Jesus says "Feed My lambs"

Crazy Peter is very bold and forthright using the word you noted full on commitment war with out end...Jesus signifies to me by His response that we are lambs ourselves (not yet sheep in maturity) and we must realise that of ourselves and of others...also signified is our duty to the flock

Jesus said "Simon son of Jonas, do you love Me?"
Simon says "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you"

Peter says the same again but as you noted with different word signifying to me not so much a decreasing of affections towards Jesus but perhaps haunted my his weakness previously...that failing being re-presented to his mind by the Jesus repeat question...a dawning realisation that the journey may be longer than anticipated and not always easy...so with the weaker word 'so to speak' is buit in and signified a resilience and resolve not previously intimated

Jesus says "Nurture My sheep"

Signifying to me the increased maturity that comes with experience and suffering being intimated by the word 'sheep' not lambs anymore...also an increase in pastoral care such as signed by the word 'nurture' help the plant to grow personal and corporate application

Jesus says "Simon, son of Jonas, do you have love for Me?"
Simon says "Lord, You know all things, You know that I love you !"

Jesus enquiry with the other word you noted signifies to me that He signals to Peter that He is more aware than any that it will be a long and difficult road for His sheep and His church and so comforts Peter here by way of assimilation of terms...Peter's response speaks of a little frustration yet his persistence in repeating his affirmations is indicative of the level of endurance that will be required in pressing the Kingdom of God forward into a world of darkness

Jesus says "Feed My Sheep"

Jesus words here speak to consummation..consummation in terms of what will be required of Peter and us all in pressing into the Kingdom of God ourselves and for the Apostle in particular...the strong statement 'Feed my sheep' impressing into the future Apostle mind His mandate for him...note the maturity intimated from lambs to nurture to Feed Sheep this has personal application in that we must make use of the means provided (the word) to nurture and feed ourselves...and the application outwardly to promote the Gospel and shepherd the flock what that may be that the Lord brings into our sphere of influence.


Well that all rambled on more and further than i first intended...i am starving and it's time to eat.

Thanks for your thought provoking post.


.




Last edited by moonbeam; March 3rd, 2013 at 06:24 AM.. Reason: Modified to Address OP to a Greater Degree
   
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March 3rd, 2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2COR12:9 View Post

Focus scriptures from John 21


Did some research on the,"Do you love me more then these" because it was still not resting easy in my mind after a friend explained his pastor was saying the "these" was referring to Peter's fishing gear and occupation. This is in connection to Peter going fishing when the Lord appeared to them, as Peter may have been returning to making a living from fishing rather then doing the Lord's work. Though I've concluded that I disagree with his pastor's interpretation of this passage, I believe he may possibly be right in assuming Peter had decided to return to his old line of work, but can no longer use the "these" to confirm that.

I really started looking into agapaˇ the word used in this passage, the verb form of agape, which is a noun as in stating God is love. I began reading all passages using agapaˇ and delved into the Greek definitions and how they were used. Mostly to get a better understanding of "to love".

Though we often know it as an unconditional love (mostly in regards to God loving us despite our sin, or us loving our enemy), this is only one representation of this kind of love in action, and is not it's primary focus in defining it. In general agapaˇ was also used in secular Greek texts which scholars use when rendering definitions, though New Testament writers have adopted the word in a way to reveal one side of agape in action in regards to believers, agapaˇ primarily means "to prefer", or to reveal a preference for someone or thing, which is literally what agape means, simply preference.

So it's basically about making a choice, and in the NT it's revealed holistically in respects to moral choices, even though this loving is revealed in some passages for worldly ways, for the Christian it is the choice that aligns with God's will, which would be the way Christians would look at agape as the noun, as in being God's preference, or what He prefers.

Most often when it's used we can see it as someone preferring and choosing one thing over the other, and then revealing that preference through certain actions. So as in God loving us (us being the preference), He reveals it by sending His Son, Christ loving us is revealed at calvary, and when we love our enemy, we manifest it by praying for and blessing them. You can see the preferring (agapaˇ) can also be used for worldly things as in money, it says we can not love (agapaˇ) both God and money, and we reveal this choice, as it says in the scriptures, by serving one or the other (the action)(Matthew 6:24).

For the Christian, for us to properly love both God and others, it's a response to God first loving us, and Him empowering and working through us to do so (1 John 4:11-12). So unconditional loving, is just one form that agapaˇ takes on in action, and is not entirely what defines it, though it's inherent when used by the Christian and God. It was really interesting to open up this word further and now get a better feel for it.

Anyways back to that passage, I was reading different well known biblical commentators on that verse, and how it fits within the big picture. Most agree that it is left ambiguous in interpreting the original Greek, but the consensus, and as I now understand it myself as the best explanation, is the "these" Christ is referring to, is not a love Peter has for something else (the fishing gear), but as a comparative to the other disciples love for Christ.

As in, do you Peter love me with a greater emphasis then the other disciples? He's using this as in a way by recalling and correcting Peter's earlier zealousness, that he would indeed go and die for Him, and even if everyone else fell away, he would not, and Christ responded, will you really, then reveals that he will disown him. So essentially He's asking Peter, what do you have to say now about this greater love that you said you would have. I believe it was humbling, knowing that he had not lived up to his own claims, to being the one who would never forsake Him.

Peter responds with phileˇ, and I take this as Peter saying even though I haven't loved you with agapao, he's still representing that his affection for Jesus is genuine.

I researched phileˇ, and its more of a great fondness and affection for one you would regard as a friend or family, from an emotional attachment, a kinship. Understandable when it's also translated into kiss, as in displaying affection (not sexual, which would be derived from eros another Grrek word we translate into love, which is where we also get erotic). We see this word used also as in "the disciple Jesus loved", God chastises the one He loves, the way Lazarus was regarded to Jesus as the one He loved.

Then the second time. Jesus asks Him, knowing it is now clear that Peter's love does not surpass the others, He asks him again if he loves him, but no longer adds the "more then these". Remember this agapao is the preference defined by action, where Peter's first actions had failed in the denial. Peter can not rightly respond with the same agapao, but again he responds with phileˇ, stating this is at least true of where his heart resides in regards to his affections for Christ.

Now in these responses, Jesus does not simply reply to Peter's saying I love you, that it's okay, I accept that, or I know you do, but follows up with a command, which in essence will prove or affirm his love for Christ. Again the preference will be revealed by action, by Peter actively obeying His command to be this pastor(shepherd) of these new Christians(the flock), to feed, guide and protect them. In doing so Peter will reveal this agapao love he has for Christ.

The last question of Peter, which oddly enough, Christ now uses phileˇ instead of agapao when He says "Do you love me?". So he would be vocalizing the same word Peter had used each time in response. Peter now hurt responds to Him, (my interpretation) though I have not proved it in action like the other love agapao, at least with phileˇ, you know all things, and you know that I have this type of love for you.

Additional reasons as to why I'm going with this interpretation, is for one, I believe it more closely adheres with the overarching context of Peter's denial and now his affirmation, then tying it into what he was currently doing, meaning fishing.

Secondly, I don't believe they were any longer near the boat, fishing gear, or the camp so to speak. Because it says before they converse, "When they had finished eating" and then when they finished discussing these things it reveals that Him and Peter are walking, and John was following further behind. As it says "Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them." So I believe that they went for a walk after breakfast and that the fishing gear would not be apparently in front of them, as to be the focal point, when Jesus questioned him, do you love me more then these. So my best guess is that Peter would follow the reasoning, and know what he was referring to, as it being a love greater then the other disciples.

I know this may be long but thanks to those who took the time to read it. Of course this is only where I've ended up for my conclusion, but in no way does it solidify what actually the "these" were that He was referring to, because it just doesn't clearly say so.
You are right.

It is too long.

oatmeal





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1
   
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March 3rd, 2013, 08:00 AM

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Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
You are right.

It is too long.

oatmeal
Did the requirement of having to read as well as comprehend more then nine words placed consecutively one after the other prove to much for your intellect....so you were forced to respond with a long dissertation ?



   
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March 3rd, 2013, 09:39 AM

Although Peter had gone back to his old way of life, no, I do not believe Jesus was referring to Peters "fishing gear". This whole discourse is echoing Peters exclamations and bold declarations about himself pre Jesus crucifixion, and then his denial of all he had so boldly proclaimed. This is Peters own personal redemption.

Three times Peter denied that he knew Jesus, and three times Jesus asks him if he loves Him. This is Jesus allowing Peter to confess his love for Jesus, which was the spiritual truth, in spite of Peters previous denials. Peter of all the Apostles needed to understand the weakness of his flesh, and his need to rely upon the Spirit of Christ...which was soon to be manifest in Him.





"If you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ!" Gal. 5:4

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?"
Gal. 3:3


"Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?" 2 Cor. 13:5
   
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March 3rd, 2013, 10:30 AM

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Originally Posted by ChristNU View Post
Although Peter had gone back to his old way of life, no, I do not believe Jesus was referring to Peters "fishing gear". This whole discourse is echoing Peters exclamations and bold declarations about himself pre Jesus crucifixion, and then his denial of all he had so boldly proclaimed. This is Peters own personal redemption.

Three times Peter denied that he knew Jesus, and three times Jesus asks him if he loves Him. This is Jesus allowing Peter to confess his love for Jesus, which was the spiritual truth, in spite of Peters previous denials. Peter of all the Apostles needed to understand the weakness of his flesh, and his need to rely upon the Spirit of Christ...which was soon to be manifest in Him.
Peter was being reinstated by Jesus. Three times Peter denied Jesus, and three times Jesus speaks to reinstate Peter.

John 21:17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

I believe Jesus was speaking about the fish that Peter caught...for after Peter denied Jesus three times, he went back to his former occupation before Jesus told him to come follow him, and that former occupation of Peter's was fishing. What is better, to love Jesus and spread the gospel, or catch fish?

Matthew 4:18 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.





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March 3rd, 2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2COR12:9 View Post

Anyways back to that passage, I was reading different well known biblical commentators on that verse, and how it fits within the big picture. Most agree that it is left ambiguous in interpreting the original Greek, but the consensus, and as I now understand it myself as the best explanation, is the "these" Christ is referring to, is not a love Peter has for something else (the fishing gear), but as a comparative to the other disciples love for Christ.

As in, do you Peter love me with a greater emphasis then the other disciples? He's using this as in a way by recalling and correcting Peter's earlier zealousness, that he would indeed go and die for Him, and even if everyone else fell away, he would not, and Christ responded, will you really, then reveals that he will disown him. So essentially He's asking Peter, what do you have to say now about this greater love that you said you would have. I believe it was humbling, knowing that he had not lived up to his own claims, to being the one who would never forsake Him.
Please consider this:

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Jesus is asking Peter if he loves Him more than other people. Peter responds, "Yea..." Jesus then tells him to feed them. Why? Because Christ is one with His sheep (Jn 17:22), and those people Peter loved less than Jesus were the temple of God (1Co 3:16). He was teaching Peter (and us) this point:

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? ...

Matthew 25:40 ... Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.





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March 3rd, 2013, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
Please consider this:

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Jesus is asking Peter if he loves Him more than other people. Peter responds, "Yea..." Jesus then tells him to feed them. Why? Because Christ is one with His sheep (Jn 17:22), and those people Peter loved less than Jesus were the temple of God (1Co 3:16). He was teaching Peter (and us) this point:

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? ...

Matthew 25:40 ... Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
That is sad, doormat. Christ is not one of Peter's sheep. Stay more focused and do not go off onto other topics such as you did.





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March 3rd, 2013, 11:21 AM

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Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
That is sad, doormat. Christ is not one of Peter's sheep. Stay more focused and do not go off onto other topics such as you did.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.





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March 3rd, 2013, 11:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Well, get Jesus' teachings, obey them, and Jesus will reveal himself to you. In addition, watch your life and your doctrine closely.

Jesus is not Peter's sheep. When Jesus says to feed his sheep, that is about doing it FOR Jesus.

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Jesus says, "you did for me." That is NOT the same as saying Jesus is Peter's sheep.





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March 3rd, 2013, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by moonbeam View Post
Greetings,

I enjoyed reading your thoughts very much, they reminded me, some times I kind of loose sight of, the incredible detail in every word of scripture and the depth of what may seem simple details.

I spent some time reading your post carefully and it encouraged me to shoot out the front door where the sun is shiny (6pm in Perth AU) and re-read chapter 21 of John....to my thoughts haveing just come in from the front porch.

The chapter begins with the 7 disciples in the boat trying to catch a load of fish through the night, with dawn approaching still no luck...with morning now breaking they hear the voice of this stranger on shore, about 100 metres away, yelling out "Little children, do you have any food?"

This reminds me that we are little children yet to grow into our full stature in Christ, in terms of knowledge and intimacy, Jesus who is the true bread of life, asks further "do you have any food?"...knowing they were standing in an empty boat...signifying their personal need for food and not having the resources themselves to supply their need.

They reply "I'm sorry man no fish today" (thats a kid creole song popped into my head)

Jesus instructs them to throw the net to the Right side of the boat and they immediately catch a massive load of big fish. John the disciple Jesus loved said to Peter "It is the Lord"

This denotes His intimacy with John and johns sensitivity to Jesus presence in His actions

I love this bit...Peter covers up and THROWS himself into the water obviously to get ashore and into the presence of Jesus asap...what a crazy guy I just love that manic commitment and immediacy he displays here.

Peter approaches Jesus who has already prepared food waiting, fish and bread. The other disciples have arrived now at shore with the boat dragging the net behind. They make their way into the presence of Jesus, Peter already having arrived.

The Lord knows our needs before we ask, He knows we are famished and has true food already prepared for us, and He instigates our feasting by proposing by way of invitation in a voice which catches our attention and elicits a response in us as only the voice of the Shepherd can...some times we will throw ourselves forward, sometimes we will creep in with the tide...but we will and do arrive at shore to meet with our Master

Having arrived at the small fire, nice and warm in the morning, with the beautiful aroma of crispy fish sizzling Jesus suggests they bring some of their catch to supplement what He has provided...I like this bit to...crazy Peter marches straight down and drags the massive haul ashore by himself...Peter is clearly a man of action and strong in action.

Jesus reminds us here not only of our need of the nourishment that only the True Bread Of Life can supply but also of the abundance we already have...if only we knew it...combining the two stashes of fish our abundance is increased and so it shall always be with the Good Shepherd of our souls...also signified is our increase in faith...HIS faith with our faith (which is HIS faith in us)...so the coffers are always full and that with excess.

Jesus asks them to come and eat - none of the disciples dare to question Him as to His identity...knowing who He is. This is now the third time Jesus was revealed to His disciples.

This signifies to me those times when you abandon yourself to His feeding and leading with that faith that walks not by sight...but just knows...knows that it is known...of Him and by Him

Then Jesus says "Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me more than these?"

Jesus calles him Simon son of Jonas which signifies to me that he has not been 'powered up' yet...which will occur later at Pentecost...there his name will become stronger kind of like Peter a son of God...not saying he isn't already...just that then it will be with power and authority of an Apostle...Where Jesus asks "more than these He makes enquiry into the realm of pridefulness and commitment...in equal measure...remember Peters denial was first built upon the firm foundation of his physical strength and prowess, he was a working man and was a powerful individual hauling the net full of fish ashore later by himself without breaking it signalling a steady pull and continuous movement..he confronted those who came to arrest Jesus in the garden with immediacy and prepared to use lethal force...relying on his personal strength and courage he made his way into the area where Jesus was taken to be interrogated...but when confronted by the mob, his internal doubt's concerning the Messiah? associated with the tumultuous scenes around him instigated a weakening of his resolve, he then imploded into denial to save his own life...this prideful dimension is raised in Jesus comment "more than these" ... also there is the theme of commitment intimated in the phrase..we are to love the Lord more than any other...He is to be first without equal...not first among equals...so there is an enquiry made into this area of unadulterated veneration and committed application of an entire life projecting ahead, with the prospect (knowledge in Jesus case) of a violent end, preceded by much persecution and vexation of spirit.

Peter says "Yes, Lord, You know that I love you"
Jesus says "Feed My lambs"

Crazy Peter is very bold and forthright using the word you noted full on commitment war with out end...Jesus signifies to me by His response that we are lambs ourselves (not yet sheep in maturity) and we must realise that of ourselves and of others...also signified is our duty to the flock

Jesus said "Simon son of Jonas, do you love Me?"
Simon says "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you"

Peter says the same again but as you noted with different word signifying to me not so much a decreasing of affections towards Jesus but perhaps haunted my his weakness previously...that failing being re-presented to his mind by the Jesus repeat question...a dawning realisation that the journey may be longer than anticipated and not always easy...so with the weaker word 'so to speak' is buit in and signified a resilience and resolve not previously intimated

Jesus says "Nurture My sheep"

Signifying to me the increased maturity that comes with experience and suffering being intimated by the word 'sheep' not lambs anymore...also an increase in pastoral care such as signed by the word 'nurture' help the plant to grow personal and corporate application

Jesus says "Simon, son of Jonas, do you have love for Me?"
Simon says "Lord, You know all things, You know that I love you !"

Jesus enquiry with the other word you noted signifies to me that He signals to Peter that He is more aware than any that it will be a long and difficult road for His sheep and His church and so comforts Peter here by way of assimilation of terms...Peter's response speaks of a little frustration yet his persistence in repeating his affirmations is indicative of the level of endurance that will be required in pressing the Kingdom of God forward into a world of darkness

Jesus says "Feed My Sheep"

Jesus words here speak to consummation..consummation in terms of what will be required of Peter and us all in pressing into the Kingdom of God ourselves and for the Apostle in particular...the strong statement 'Feed my sheep' impressing into the future Apostle mind His mandate for him...note the maturity intimated from lambs to nurture to Feed Sheep this has personal application in that we must make use of the means provided (the word) to nurture and feed ourselves...and the application outwardly to promote the Gospel and shepherd the flock what that may be that the Lord brings into our sphere of influence.


Well that all rambled on more and further than i first intended...i am starving and it's time to eat.

Thanks for your thought provoking post.


.

Excellent walk through of these passages, thank you for reading, and taking the time to respond with such reflections.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus

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March 3rd, 2013, 11:58 AM

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Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
Peter was being reinstated by Jesus. Three times Peter denied Jesus, and three times Jesus speaks to reinstate Peter.

John 21:17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

I believe Jesus was speaking about the fish that Peter caught...for after Peter denied Jesus three times, he went back to his former occupation before Jesus told him to come follow him, and that former occupation of Peter's was fishing. What is better, to love Jesus and spread the gospel, or catch fish?

Matthew 4:18 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
This could definitely be a possible interpretation of "these" being the fish. As I said it is left open for us to draw our own conclusions, and this could be considered from Peter's return to fishing, though I'm not wholly convinced due to my statements in my OP. Though I do appreciate your rendering of the passage as at least plausible if not the actual intentions of the Lord's inference. Thanks for sharing.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus

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March 3rd, 2013, 12:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
Please consider this:

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Jesus is asking Peter if he loves Him more than other people. Peter responds, "Yea..." Jesus then tells him to feed them. Why? Because Christ is one with His sheep (Jn 17:22), and those people Peter loved less than Jesus were the temple of God (1Co 3:16). He was teaching Peter (and us) this point:

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? ...

Matthew 25:40 ... Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:37-40 is a great example of how Peter will reveal His love to Christ, good point.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus

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March 3rd, 2013, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by ChristNU View Post
Although Peter had gone back to his old way of life, no, I do not believe Jesus was referring to Peters "fishing gear". This whole discourse is echoing Peters exclamations and bold declarations about himself pre Jesus crucifixion, and then his denial of all he had so boldly proclaimed. This is Peters own personal redemption.

Three times Peter denied that he knew Jesus, and three times Jesus asks him if he loves Him. This is Jesus allowing Peter to confess his love for Jesus, which was the spiritual truth, in spite of Peters previous denials. Peter of all the Apostles needed to understand the weakness of his flesh, and his need to rely upon the Spirit of Christ...which was soon to be manifest in Him.
Right on, and as Moonbeam pointed out we can see that Jesus was using his original name, maybe so as to make that connection, that he of now was not living up to the name of Cephas, but soon will when he is empowered from on high.







Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus

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March 3rd, 2013, 01:08 PM

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Originally Posted by 2COR12:9 View Post
This could definitely be a possible interpretation of "these" being the fish. As I said it is left open for us to draw our own conclusions, and this could be considered from Peter's return to fishing, though I'm not wholly convinced due to my statements in my OP. Though I do appreciate your rendering of the passage as at least plausible if not the actual intentions of the Lord's inference. Thanks for sharing.
I am glad to hear that you consider the explanation that I gave, and thanks for being kind about it.





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