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Why isn't David in heaven? - November 5th, 2013, 02:36 AM

Peter wrote that David was promised a place in heaven, but that David had not yet ascended into the heavens.

So why David isn't in heaven since he certainly was dead and was a man after Gods own heart.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Acts 13:22
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’




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November 5th, 2013, 02:44 AM

Now some people say it may be he was there in spirit, but I don't see anywhere in the verse that talks about David's spirit or soul going anywhere. If the spirit is some kind of conscious part of us that separates from the body at death (i.e. - the inner self) then 1) why doesn't Paul mention it?, and 2) if David's consciousness was in heaven wouldn't that be where "David" was, technically? But Paul is saying that David is still in his grave, not heaven, not 'purgatory', just the grave. If David was in any of those other places then this would have been a great time for Paul to teach it, but he doesn't, does he?

Now Paul was trying to straighten out some misconceptions. You see, prior to the Roman occupation of Israel and Judea, the Greeks ruled there for a long time. The Greeks, under the Hellenistic teachings of Plato (and others) taught of the duality of body/spirit (some say body/soul). This teaching was accepted by a great number of Jews as others tried to hold it back, but it replaced the OT wholism concept of body/spirit/soul. The dualistic view is based in paganism, not scriptural teachings. This is the misconception that Paul was straightening out.

If you look in scripture it clearly shows the truth. Many people believe or say that when you die, that you go straight to Heaven or Hell, but it seems nowhere in the Bible does it state we go anywhere but to sleep and in the grave until that final day when Christ comes and they are resurrected.

Job 14:12 KJV

So man lieth down , and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake , nor be raised out of their sleep.

Daniel 12:2 KJV

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake , some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11 KJV

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth ; but I go , that I may awake him out of sleep .

Acts 20:9 KJV

And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching , he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Proverbs 30:4 KJV

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended ? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell ?

John 3:13 KJV

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Scripture says that all that die will not know anything and in the "twinkling of an eye" they will be resurrected and be with Christ at the resurrection. The dead will have no concept of time and to them it will feel like a split second before they are awakened and resurrected.

Christ promised He would come again to receive the righteous to where He is. Has He returned, not yet, so the dead lay in their graves awaiting Him and their reward of eternal life. That's why the Second Coming of Christ is so important to those who follow Christ, it gives them hope even if they die and are laid to rest.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 02:48 AM

If you read the Bible and see what it says, you'll notice that everyone we know for sure is in heaven, went there bodily or with a physical body.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Physical body + breath (spirit) = a living soul

Here it is in reverse: Psalms 104:29 - Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Physical body - breath (spirit) = death (the Bible refers to death as unconcious "sleep" from which we are awakened at the resurrection.)

Job 27:3 tells us the spirit of God is in our nostrils. It's our breath. It isn't a separate, walking, talking entity within us.

There are not any verses in scripture that say the "soul" goes to heaven upon death. There is one that says our spirit returns to God...all spirits, even the breath of the wicked.

Notice before Christ brought Jairus' daughter back to life that He was laughed to scorn for saying that she was "asleep". They all knew she was physically dead, but Christ was saying she was asleep.

The account of her being brought back to life tells us that her spirit "came again and she arose." Her breath was given back to her and she lived. (Luke 8:40-56).

The same is true for Lazarus (not the one in the parable). Jesus said he was asleep and everyone thought He meant that Lazarus was just napping, but Christ was talking of Lazarus' death. He said plainly "Lazarus is dead." (John 11).

David is still in the grave and hasn't ascended to heaven yet because it takes a resurrection to do that (unless you're Enoch or Elijah). We know that Christ resurrected "many" of the saints that slept right after He was resurrected, but scripture doesn't tell us which saints it was. We do know that David wasn't one of them because Paul wrote that he is still in the grave and hasn't ascended.

Paul wrote that at the last trump the dead in their graves would hear His voice and awake. After that a righteous person will "put on" immortality and be caught up in the air to be with Christ. Those that are righteous and still alive when Christ returns will be caught up with Him as well.

Now some people don't even believe there is a heaven that Christ will take us to, but He stated it plainly:

John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus told us that there are many mansions in His Father's house in heaven and that He (Christ) will come again (the second coming) to personally receive us and take us there. We are caught up to meet Him in the air because the earth will be desolate for 1000 years.

When Christ returns the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess 2:8) and the wicked do not live again until the thousand years with Christ is heaven are over.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The wicked have to be resurrected to receive Judgment and punishment.

Later in Revelation 20, we find out that the wicked will surround and try to attack the new Jerusalem (which comes down from heaven). That's when hellfire rains down from heaven and devours them. But yes, our home will eventually be the new earth.

Back on topic....David is still asleep in his grave, awaiting the resurrection at Christ's second coming. Christ tells us that His rewards come with Him at His return.

He promised to personally receive us to be where He is. That hasn't happened yet.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 02:52 AM

Now some people say well what about the verse that says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

But you see, therein is the problem. The verse doesn't say that - let me clarify using the actual verse:

2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The verse does not say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" - is does not equal and, not to mention the qualifier Paul used willing rather. Don't you see what Paul was saying here? Chapter 5 of this epistle is basically Paul lamenting over how he wants to be reunited with Christ, but, just as Paul himself explained in 1 Thess 4:13-18, he knows that won't happen until the second coming of Christ.

So what is Paul actually saying? Simple. First, what is this "body" (soma) that he is referring to? Well, it cannot be his physical body else he would be contradicting himself from what he wrote in 1 Thess 4, where he is explaining this very thing, so the only other reasonable thing is that he is referring to the "body" of believers of which he is a member of. Is this a possibility and more correct? Yes. The word soma, just as indicated in Strong's lexicon (#4982 definition #3) can and is used this way. What Paul is saying is that he's willing rather be away from his closely knit group of believers in order to be present with Christ - that's it, nothing more.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 02:54 AM

Now others say well what about Luke 23, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

But the thief didn't die that day so it is quite impossible for him to have gone to heaven with Christ. Also, you recall that after Christ rose and was approached by Mary that He told her not to touch Him for He had NOT ascended yet to heaven. Based on these two observations we are left with a dilemma; either Christ lied to the thief (which none of us would believe) or the comma is in the wrong place as there was none used in the original writtings and should be moved over one word. Which do you believe is the most likely scenario?

If Jesus had ascended to Paradise the same day that He died, then the promise would make sense and we could gather that the thief was made a special promise. However Christ did not ascend that day.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:06 AM

Now some try to say and even teach that the soul cannot die, but they are not teaching truth as scripture proves this to be incorrect:
Ezekial 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 & 20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:08 AM

Yes, while it is true that David did not ascend to Heaven yet, David is fully aware of where he is at. The story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is not a fable or a parable. It's a real life event described to us by Jesus Christ that took place during the time of Moses. So right now David is in Abraham's bosom with all other true believers who die in the Lord within this current dispensation (i.e. period of time). In the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the dead in Christ will rise out of the waterless pit (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) (Zechariah 9:11) followed by those who are yet still alive. After this event, all believes who die go directly to Heaven. But right now all believers now will go to Abraham's bosom until the Rapture happens. That is why David did not ascend; Not because of soul sleep. For soul sleep is more like atheism which suggests that one experiences non-existence or unawareness when one dies. But people will be surprised when they die, though. Just like the Rich-man was surprised when he found himself in Hell when he died. For the Rich-man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers when he said,

"For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'." ~ (Luke 16:28 NLT).



   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:15 AM

Now some ask but what about Revelation 6:9,10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

These verses have always caused many problems with NT Christians because they seem to view the OT as a separate book that has nothing to do with anything. but this is simply not the case. One important thing to bear in mind regarding the Revelation/Apocalypse right off the bat is that it is a vision, highly symbolic and metaphorical, and most of the things described therein aren't to be taken at face value. For instance, heaven doesn't have a bunch of colored horses flying around, Christ won't have a literal sword come out of His mouth, etc. The souls under the altar are no different; they aren't literal, they symbolize a greater truth.

The use of the word "souls" (psychas) in the above passage is unique for the New Testament, because it is never used to refer to humans in the intermediate state. The reason for its use here is suggested by the unnatural death of the martyrs whose blood was shed for the cause of Christ.

In the Old Testament sacrificial system, the blood of animals was poured out at the base of the altar of burnt offerings (Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30), The blood contained the soul (Lev 17:11) of the innocent victim that was offered as an atoning sacrifice to God on behalf of penitent sinners. Thus, the souls of the martyrs are seen under the altar to signify that symbolically they had been sacrificed upon the altar and their blood has been poured at the base.

In the Old Testament the soul is in the blood. In this instance, the souls of the martyrs are under the altar because their blood had been symbolically poured at the base of the altar.

The language of sacrificial death is used elsewhere in the NT to denote martyrdom. Facing death, Paul wrote "For I am already on the point of being sacrificed" (2 Tim 4:6). The apostle also says that he was glad "to be poured out as a libation" for Christ (Philemon 2:17).

Thus, Christian martyrs were viewed as sacrifices offered to God. Their bloodshed on earth was poured symbolically at the heavenly altar. Thus their souls are seen under the altar because that is where symbolically the blood of the martyrs flowed. So, we see, we must not take too literally those images found in a prophetic book and this also shows why reading the OT is vital for a true understanding of all scripture.

Now lets look at Revelation 20:4-6 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Again, we can't take the imagery too literally, and does the text say that the souls John is seeing are already in heaven anywhere in the text? No. Notice also the verbs being used "were beheaded" - that is a past-tense phrase - for at one time they were beheaded. When we take into context what is being described here (namely Christ's second coming) we learn that the righteous are raised up out of their graves (the first resurrection) - so those that were beheaded would also be raised up at this time for they are accounted righteous. This is totally consistent with the wholism of the body and soul, not the dual view as was taught by pagan Greece.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:33 AM

Soul sleep is unbiblical.

It's wrong not only because it does not exist in the Bible but it is wrong because all atheist unbelievers expect to go into non-existence. It's their reward for thinking they can get away with evil. But that is not what awaits them. The rich-man in Luke 16 found out Hell was a real place. For the rich-man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers of the place where he was at.

In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Elijah was taken up into Heaven the Bible says. Elijah did not cease to be conscious.

Matthew 17:1-4 reads, "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." Moses had been dead (Deuteronomy 34:5) for fifteen centuries; yet, despite being dead, he is able to speak to Jesus. Clearly, Moses' soul was not asleep in the grave. The same is true of Elijah, who centuries earlier had been caught up in a whirlwind (2nd Kings 2:11). Elijah was still conscious.

Matthew 22:32 states, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” God is not the God of the DEAD; but of the LIVING.

In Luke 23:43 Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross... "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Jesus didn't say anything about soul sleep.

Source Used (Although I disagree with the writer of the article that suggests that a believer living before the Pre-Trib Rapture goes directly to Heaven, the verses and words I quoted from his article convey the truth that a person will be conscious when they die ):
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...soul_sleep.htm




Last edited by Jason0047; November 5th, 2013 at 06:51 AM..
   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:50 AM

If Paul is with the Lord now, then so too is David.

Paul:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:8



   
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November 5th, 2013, 03:51 AM

(I'll wait a little for this thread to settle down, before I correct the Opening Post.)



   
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November 5th, 2013, 04:31 AM

Before I correct the OP, I'll do a little correcting of our resident bibliolater, Mr. Jason0047:


But right now all believers now will go to Abraham's bosom until the Rapture happens.
Er...no.

Abraham's bosom wouldn't be big enough, even if he wore an E-size bra.

All believers, as I have shown above from the quote from Paul at 2 Cor 5:8, go directly to be with the Lord upon their physical demise.

And he said the same thing elsewhere:

"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" Phil 1:23

The term "Abraham's bosom" was simply a description of heaven in Jewish terms, which Christ used for his Jewish audience. For the Jews said "we have Abraham for our father". And Jesus knew that Abraham was the honourary father of our Christian faith.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 04:43 AM

Correcting Mr. Hobie on his Opening Post....


Paul wrote that David was promised a place in heaven, but that David had not yet ascended into the heavens.
No it was Peter who said this, and Luke who wrote it.

So now that we've gotten you straightened out on the authorship, let's look at the passage you are basing your anti-intellectual ideas on:

[34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


First of all, note that the time of David's speaking is signalled as being the same time as his not being in the heavens. That is, Peter doesn't say:

"David is not ascended, but he said.....",

but rather,

"David is not ascended, but he says....".

So what Peter is doing here, is using the present tense to bring a past event into the now. This is a narration device.

So instead of saying:

"David was not ascended, but said......"

he says:

"David is not ascended, but says...."

which has the effect of bringing the story ‘closer to home’.

When I was teaching English in Siberia, the principal of the school who was watching me take her advanced class interrupted me at one stage as I was speaking to her students, and pointed out (to them) that I was using the present tense to recount a past holiday in Fiji. (I was saying: "And then we play tennis, and then we go to the pool......".) This is what we naturally do (without realising it) when we wish to bring the listener into a virtual present of something we are recounting from the past. And this is what Peter is doing here.

So Peter is not saying that at the time of his own speaking David was not ascended into the heavens, but that at the time of David's speaking David was not (yet) ascended into the heavens.

Now....why would he say this? Wouldn't it go without saying anyway?

Well yes it would go without saying.

So he must be saying it for some reason other than that he is an idiot.

He is in fact saying it because it is integral to the argument he is making, which is that, even though David was reigning as king over the Jews, he nevertheless declared at the time that someone else (someone instead of himself) was (in fact) Lord, and if Lord, then Lord of the Jews.

So then, Peter concludes his argument with:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

For otherwise, there is indeed no reason to bring up David's state of being at all, but Peter could have simply said that David said "the Lord said to my Lord….".

So Mr. Hobie, unfortunately you have been indoctrinated from young on the pet topics of uneducated people, by uneducated people, and as a result you have not gone beyond their rudimentary reading and comprehension skills, but have accepted their teachings without rigorous cross-examination.

If you were not so stubborn, I would feel sorry for you. But I have no sympathy for you and your Seventh Day Adventist cohorts whatsoever.



   
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November 5th, 2013, 04:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
Paul wrote that David was promised a place in heaven, but that David had not yet ascended into the heavens.

So why David isn't in heaven since he certainly was dead and was a man after Gods own heart.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Acts 13:22
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’
Because he is dead.

He is dead and remains so until the resurrection of the just, the first resurrection.

Dead people do not occupy heaven, they are dead, they are in the grave, sheol/hades.

God is not the God of the dead, hence the need for a resurrection to raise them back to life.

God is the God of the living, hence the need for a resurrection to raise them back to life.





"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5

I John 3:1-2. Prov 14:34 Psalm 133:1

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November 5th, 2013, 05:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
Correcting Mr. Hobie on his Opening Post....


Paul wrote that David was promised a place in heaven, but that David had not yet ascended into the heavens.
No it was Peter who said this, and Luke who wrote it.

So now that we've gotten you straightened out on the authorship, let's look at the passage you are basing your anti-intellectual ideas on:

[34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


First of all, note that the time of David's speaking is signalled as being the same time as his not being in the heavens. That is, Peter doesn't say:

"David is not ascended, but he said.....",

but rather,

"David is not ascended, but he says....".

So what Peter is doing here, is using the present tense to bring a past event into the now. This is a narration device.

So instead of saying:

"David was not ascended, but said......"

he says:

"David is not ascended, but says...."

which has the effect of bringing the story ‘closer to home’.

When I was teaching English in Siberia, the principal of the school who was watching me take her advanced class interrupted me at one stage as I was speaking to her students, and pointed out (to them) that I was using the present tense to recount a past holiday in Fiji. (I was saying: "And then we play tennis, and then we go to the pool......".) This is what we naturally do (without realising it) when we wish to bring the listener into a virtual present of something we are recounting from the past. And this is what Peter is doing here.

So Peter is not saying that at the time of his own speaking David was not ascended into the heavens, but that at the time of David's speaking David was not (yet) ascended into the heavens.

Now....why would he say this? Wouldn't it go without saying anyway?

Well yes it would go without saying.

So he must be saying it for some reason other than that he is an idiot.

He is in fact saying it because it is integral to the argument he is making, which is that, even though David was reigning as king over the Jews, he nevertheless declared at the time that someone else (someone instead of himself) was (in fact) Lord, and if Lord, then Lord of the Jews.

So then, Peter concludes his argument with:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

For otherwise, there is indeed no reason to bring up David's state of being at all, but Peter could have simply said that David said "the Lord said to my Lord….".

So Mr. Hobie, unfortunately you have been indoctrinated from young on the pet topics of uneducated people, by uneducated people, and as a result you have not gone beyond their rudimentary reading and comprehension skills, but have accepted their teachings without rigorous cross-examination.

If you were not so stubborn, I would feel sorry for you. But I have no sympathy for you and your Seventh Day Adventist cohorts whatsoever.
Sorry, "Peter'.. it was 3am in the morning.....



   
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