Limited atonement !

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I didn't say he was crucified at that time. But as B57's citation pointed out,


Meaning that when God promises something He often acts as if those things were already fulfilled, as long as they aren't contingent on something else. Christ's death was promised in Gen 3, but wasn't fulfilled until AD 30 (or so)--no contingencies, so it was a foregone conclusion.

Look, I agree that when God said He would provide a way back to Himself, with it not being contingent upon anything, it's as good as done.

That's not the problem here, though.

The problem is that Revelation 13:8 is not talking about God's plans to provide a Messiah. It's not even talking about Christ.

It's talking about who's names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

Thus it is legitimate to say Christ was slain from (not at) the foundation of the world.

No, it's not, because that's not what the verse says to begin with, as Revelation 17:8 clarifies.

Again:

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation13:8&version=NKJV

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation17:8&version=NKJV

The ONLY DIFFERENCE between those two verses is the presence or lack thereof of the phrase "of the Lamb slain." Everything else is identical, thus "from the foundation of the world" CANNOT be referring to "of the Lamb slain," in either of the passages.

And if I remember correctly, the grammar of the sentences in the Greek precludes the "foundation" phrase referring to "the Lamb" phrase, but has it referring to the "Book of Life."

But everybody was blotted out of the book of life at the time Adam sinned, only to be written back in on the occasion of their belief in Christ.

Where do you get the idea that everyone's names were already in the Lamb's Book of Life prior to Adam's sin? Scripture never says nor indicates this.

Why did you ignore the first portion of what I said in my previous post? It completely undermines any sort of usage of the verse to mean anything other than that the name of the book is the "Book of Life," that it belongs to the Lamb slain (Christ), and that whoever's name has not been written in it since the foundation of the world will not be saved.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Look, I agree that when God said He would provide a way back to Himself, with it not being contingent upon anything, it's as good as done.

That's not the problem here, though.

The problem is that Revelation 13:8 is not talking about God's plans to provide a Messiah. It's not even talking about Christ.

It's talking about who's names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.



No, it's not, because that's not what the verse says to begin with, as Revelation 17:8 clarifies.

Again:

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation13:8&version=NKJV

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation17:8&version=NKJV

The ONLY DIFFERENCE between those two verses is the presence or lack thereof of the phrase "of the Lamb slain." Everything else is identical, thus "from the foundation of the world" CANNOT be referring to "of the Lamb slain," in either of the passages.

And if I remember correctly, the grammar of the sentences in the Greek precludes the "foundation" phrase referring to "the Lamb" phrase, but has it referring to the "Book of Life."



Where do you get the idea that everyone's names were already in the Lamb's Book of Life prior to Adam's sin? Scripture never says nor indicates this.

Why did you ignore the first portion of what I said in my previous post? It completely undermines any sort of usage of the verse to mean anything other than that the name of the book is the "Book of Life," that it belongs to the Lamb slain (Christ), and that whoever's name has not been written in it since the foundation of the world will not be saved.
I'm not ignoring, I'm just not agreeing. The problem with your way of reading it is that it then leaves you with two options. 1. That every wicked person from the foundation of the world would then be "on the earth", or 2. That everybody who has not been written in the book of life was determined at the foundation of the world. I don't think you agree with either of those.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I'm not ignoring, I'm just not agreeing. The problem with your way of reading it is that it then leaves you with two options. 1. That every wicked person from the foundation of the world would then be "on the earth", or 2. That everybody who has not been written in the book of life was determined at the foundation of the world. I don't think you agree with either of those.

False dichotomy, because what it actually says is:

3. That the name of a person is written in the Book of life when that person puts their trust in God, and that God determined before the foundation of the world that anyone who does not have their name written in the book will not be saved, and that anyone who does have their name written in it will be saved. There were no names in the book at the foundation of the world.
 

marke

Well-known member
Christs Death is limited to them that are the called !

Heb 9:12-15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

It was Gods purpose in Christs Death that certain people might receive Eternal Life, or Eternal Inheritance, not everyone, but " they which are called" !

Now the called in Vs 15 are a specific, definite people since the writer uses the definite article for the called ! All without exception are not the called.

There are a specific group of people in this world that the called, Rom 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

See " them that are the called here" must be distinguished from all others

1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

See how the called here are distinguished, set apart from the others, whether they be jews of gentiles, the called are set apart people from the rest of the world. Paul writes to the same Corinithians earlier 1 Cor 1:1-2
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

The called have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, that is set apart from the rest of the world, and so it is for all for whom Christ died. Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body/death of Jesus Christ/ once for all.
Does God love or hate unborn sinners as soon as they are born, or do you have no idea?
 

Derf

Well-known member
False dichotomy, because what it actually says is:

3. That the name of a person is written in the Book of life when that person puts their trust in God, and that God determined before the foundation of the world that anyone who does not have their name written in the book will not be saved, and that anyone who does have their name written in it will be saved. There were no names in the book at the foundation of the world.
I think there were: Adam and Eve.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Webster 1828 doesn't define it so narrowly as you.
Original; rise; as the foundationof the world.

Webster isn't a good Biblical authority.

From Job 38:4:


Strong's h3245

- Lexical: יָסַד
- Transliteration: yasad
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: yaw-sad'
- Definition: to establish, found, fix.
- Origin: A primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. Settle, consult.
- Usage: appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found(-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, X sure.
- Translated as (count): has founded (2), laid (2), the foundation was laid (2), and laid the foundations (1), and Lay the foundations (1), and lay your foundations (1), and lays the foundation (1), And the foundation (1), And when laid the foundation (1), founded (1), founded it (1), had appointed (1), had ordered (1), has founded it (1), has laid the foundation (1), have founded them (1), He laid its foundation (1), he shall lay its foundation (1), I lay for a foundation (1), it was the foundation of (1), its founding (1), laying them (1), Set (1), sure (1), take counsel (1), the foundation (1), the foundation had been laid (1), to lay the foundation (1), was the foundation laid (1), when I laid the foundations (1), when the foundation was laid (1), which He has established (1), while they take counsel (1), You founded (1), You have founded them (1), You have marked them (1), You have ordained (1), You laid the foundation (1), Your foundation shall be laid (1).



And from Job 38:6:


Strong's h134

- Lexical: אֶדֶן
- Transliteration: eden
- Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
- Phonetic Spelling: eh'-den
- Definition: a base, pedestal.
- Origin: From the same as 'adown (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.).
- Usage: foundation, socket.
- Translated as (count): sockets (19), and their sockets (12), and its sockets (4), and with their sockets (3), its sockets (3), their sockets (3), the sockets for (2), and sockets (1), And the sockets (1), and with sockets (1), bases (1), but their sockets (1), for each socket (1), its foundations (1), of sockets (1), the bases (1), the bases for (1), the sockets (1).



So it could be the whole creation week.

In Job 38, we see God talking with Job, demanding to know where he was when He laid the foundations of the earth. He describes how He did so while questioning Job.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’ - Job 38:4-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job38:4-11&version=NKJV

This is talking about days 2 and 3 of the creation week, the "foundation" of the earth.

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. - Genesis 1:6-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:6-10&version=NKJV

The crust of the earth was made, dividing the waters from the waters, and by the end of day 3, had formed "pillars" that rested on the foundation of the mantle.


So no, it's not talking about the whole creation week. The latest it could be is partway through day 3, but that's still 3 days too early for Adam and Eve to have existed, let alone have their names in the Book of Life.

Narrow definitions will adversely affect your theology.

My definitions are scripturally sound, and as firm as the firmament which is called Heaven.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Webster isn't a good Biblical authority.

From Job 38:4:


Strong's h3245

- Lexical: יָסַד
- Transliteration: yasad
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: yaw-sad'
- Definition: to establish, found, fix.
- Origin: A primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. Settle, consult.
- Usage: appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found(-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, X sure.
- Translated as (count): has founded (2), laid (2), the foundation was laid (2), and laid the foundations (1), and Lay the foundations (1), and lay your foundations (1), and lays the foundation (1), And the foundation (1), And when laid the foundation (1), founded (1), founded it (1), had appointed (1), had ordered (1), has founded it (1), has laid the foundation (1), have founded them (1), He laid its foundation (1), he shall lay its foundation (1), I lay for a foundation (1), it was the foundation of (1), its founding (1), laying them (1), Set (1), sure (1), take counsel (1), the foundation (1), the foundation had been laid (1), to lay the foundation (1), was the foundation laid (1), when I laid the foundations (1), when the foundation was laid (1), which He has established (1), while they take counsel (1), You founded (1), You have founded them (1), You have marked them (1), You have ordained (1), You laid the foundation (1), Your foundation shall be laid (1).



And from Job 38:6:


Strong's h134

- Lexical: אֶדֶן
- Transliteration: eden
- Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
- Phonetic Spelling: eh'-den
- Definition: a base, pedestal.
- Origin: From the same as 'adown (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.).
- Usage: foundation, socket.
- Translated as (count): sockets (19), and their sockets (12), and its sockets (4), and with their sockets (3), its sockets (3), their sockets (3), the sockets for (2), and sockets (1), And the sockets (1), and with sockets (1), bases (1), but their sockets (1), for each socket (1), its foundations (1), of sockets (1), the bases (1), the bases for (1), the sockets (1).





In Job 38, we see God talking with Job, demanding to know where he was when He laid the foundations of the earth. He describes how He did so while questioning Job.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’ - Job 38:4-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job38:4-11&version=NKJV

This is talking about days 2 and 3 of the creation week, the "foundation" of the earth.

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. - Genesis 1:6-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:6-10&version=NKJV

The crust of the earth was made, dividing the waters from the waters, and by the end of day 3, had formed "pillars" that rested on the foundation of the mantle.


So no, it's not talking about the whole creation week. The latest it could be is partway through day 3, but that's still 3 days too early for Adam and Eve to have existed, let alone have their names in the Book of Life.



My definitions are scripturally sound, and as firm as the firmament which is called Heaven.
It's interesting that you referenced Job 38:6, "eden"
I can see it's not the same word, exactly, but I'm pretty sure God uses literary devices that allows for one "eden" to hint at another, especially in Job. And certainly Revelation, written in Greek, could carry both connotations.

But even if that's not what's intended, the "foundation of the world" is not the same concept as "the foundations of the world". The first refers to the founding, as I pointed out with my Webster reference-- meaning the creation of the world, the beginning, the establishment. Not some pillars.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
But even if that's not what's intended, the "foundation of the world" is not the same concept as "the foundations of the world". The first refers to the founding, as I pointed out with my Webster reference-- meaning the creation of the world, the beginning, the establishment. Not some pillars.

The settling of the pillars are the literal "foundation" of the crust of the earth, which God called Heaven, and then called the dry land which formed from it Earth. If that's not the "foundation of the world," then what exactly do you think is?

And again, NONE of this changes that "since the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8 is NOT modifying "the Lamb slain," but rather the "Book of Life," as Revelation 17:8 clearly shows.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The settling of the pillars are the literal "foundation" of the crust of the earth, which God called Heaven, and then called the dry land which formed from it Earth. If that's not the "foundation of the world," then what exactly do you think is?

And again, NONE of this changes that "since the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8 is NOT modifying "the Lamb slain," but rather the "Book of Life," as Revelation 17:8 clearly shows.
Your description of the foundation of the world is one of an object, not of a time. "From the foundation of the world" would indicate a location. I have a hard time seeing how that fits with either context.

Your question is a good one, though I've already answered it partially. Foundation of the world means the creation of the world, and it can include up to the time Adam sinned, which is when God first promised the messiah, as the one who would crush the serpent's head. Because I don't believe the scripture is referring to someone who was damned to hell from creation, before they ever do anything wrong, before they even exist, I believe it to be a reference to those who don't acknowledge Christ as savior in the timeframe of the passage. Because Rev 13 comes before Rev 17, Rev 17 can be read in terms explained in Rev 13, which DOES mention Christ. So if Rev 13 talks about Christ being slain from the foundation (creation) of the world, and those that won't acknowledge Christ in the present as not written in the book of life from that time, it refers to the fact that men all will die ("be blotted out from the book of life" if alive at creation, but never written in if they are going to die without the saving grace of Christ). And the wicked in Rev 13 and 17 can be described that way--doomed to die because of Adam's sin, and not saved by Jesus Christ.

In other words, Adam was in the book of life until he sinned, then he was blotted out. Ever since Adam, everybody has been subject to death, even if their sins were not as serious as Adam's (Rom 5:17), so they weren't written into the book of life, until Christ came (an exception might be granted for the Israelites, but I'd have to think about that). Those that believe in Christ are written in.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Salvation has always been limited to Gods Elect, Yea even the Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory. 2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This compliments the OT annoucement Isa 46:13


I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Salvation is solely for Israel, Gods Elect from out of the jews and Gentiles.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Your description of the foundation of the world is one of an object, not of a time. "From the foundation of the world" would indicate a location.

Wrong. It indicates a point in time.

The point (that I'm trying to make) is that "From/since" the foundation of the world is a figure of speech that means "NEVER".

I have a hard time seeing how that fits with either context.

Supra.

Your question is a good one, though I've already answered it partially. Foundation of the world means the creation of the world, and it can include up to the time Adam sinned, which is when God first promised the messiah, as the one who would crush the serpent's head. Because I don't believe the scripture is referring to someone who was damned to hell from creation, before they ever do anything wrong, before they even exist, I believe it to be a reference to those who don't acknowledge Christ as savior in the timeframe of the passage.

Again, the phrase just means that they have never been in the Book of Life.

Because Rev 13 comes before Rev 17, Rev 17 can be read in terms explained in Rev 13, which DOES mention Christ.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that Christ isn't and wasn't being slain from the foundation of the world, so it doesn't make any sense to read it that way.

So if Rev 13 talks about Christ being slain from the foundation (creation) of the world,

It doesn't.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation13:8&version=NKJV

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation17:8&version=NKJV

If BOTH verses had said "the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," then at best it would be ambiguous to it's meaning.

But since 17:8 DOESN'T have "of the Lamb "slain," we can know that it isn't saying that Christ was being slain from the foundation of the world, but that "of the Lamb slain" is just the subtitle of the book called the "Book of Life," and that "from the foundation of the world" is modifying the book, not Christ.

and those that won't acknowledge Christ in the present as not written in the book of life from that time, it refers to the fact that men all will die ("be blotted out from the book of life" if alive at creation, but never written in if they are going to die without the saving grace of Christ). And the wicked in Rev 13 and 17 can be described that way--doomed to die because of Adam's sin, and not saved by Jesus Christ.

The problem with this 1) that no mention of "blotting out" is present here, and 2) is that Revelation describes the future history of Israel with regards to the New Covenant God made with her, which, while undergirded by God's grace, also requires that the people who are under the New Covenant keep the law. They are added to the Book of Life of the Lamb slain when they put their faith in God, and the only way someone will be blotted out is if they don't overcome their fleshy desires (Revelation 3:5, which is the only time in Revelation where "blotting someone out of a book" is mentioned). That's CLEARLY not talking about the Body of Christ, the members of which are "more than conquerors through Him who loved us." (Romans 8:37) Those who have never entered into the covenant with God (especially at that time) will not have had their names written in the Book of Life, ever. Worse for them, even, is that God, at that time, will be forcing people to "pick a team," so to speak, making it EXTREMELY clear who is on His side, and who has rejected Him. There won't be anyone not on a side.

In other words, Adam was in the book of life until he sinned, then he was blotted out.

Where do you find this in scripture?

Ever since Adam, everybody has been subject to death, even if their sins were not as serious as Adam's (Rom 5:17),

We agree on this.

so they weren't written into the book of life, until Christ came (an exception might be granted for the Israelites, but I'd have to think about that).

Just a thought, but perhaps Romans 4 might have a hint:

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. - Romans 4:5-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-12&version=NKJV

Those that believe in Christ are written in.

More accurately, those who put their trust in God are written in. That means something different for Israel, versus the Body of Christ, but both groups must put their faith in God.
 

Jenkins

Active member
The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.
Limited Atonement is issued from the Pit of Hell. Read 1 John 2:2.
 

Jenkins

Active member
If you reject limited atonement you reject the Gospel friend. 1 Jn 2:2 is limited atonement.
1 John 2:2 is not limited atonement. "The sins of the whole world."

Do not speak of friendship with those to whom you lie about the Eternal Word of God. You will be judged more severely for your false proclamations as a presumed teacher.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
1 John 2:2 is not limited atonement. "The sins of the whole world."

Do not speak of friendship with those to whom you lie about the Eternal Word of God. You will be judged more severely for your false proclamations as a presumed teacher.
Yes it is limited atonement, there isnt any other in scripture.
 
Top