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Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

@JudgeRightly, I'm going to be quite busy today so I'll have to wait to read your full post until I have more time. All I've read so far is just the first few sentences but I thought I'd offer the following, just as a teaser... While I think Lion's argument to be a good one (the best I've yet...

If you died today and found yourself before Christ and thus, that your current unbelief was in error, would you even want for your childhood "attempts to get saved" to have been effective? If so, why?

It doesn't matter, Gary! It's laughable that you're afraid of eternal torment but not of God. If you think you're getting off light, you've got another thing coming. It's the fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom, not of Dante's conception of Hell. Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is...

Feelings lie to people all the time. Anyone who makes such a collosal decision based on feelings is a fool to begin with and they deserve what they get. I don't disagree but Gary's post didn't ignore that passage and it seems fruitless to debate it anyway, especially with an unbeliever.

Gary, You are, by your own statement, an unbeliever. So, why do you care what the bible teaches about what Hell is? I find it fascinating that an unbeliever shows up here and gives the single most biblically substantive argument I've ever seen on TOL for what is believed, throughout most of...

You are definitely not in the wrong place! The reason the forum might seem more "etertainment" based than what you're looking for has only to do with the lack of people capable of having serious discussions about their religious beliefs without getting their feelings hurt and leaving. People...

Oh man! This might be really fun! I can't wait.

Thanks JR! I fixed it in my post as well.

Okay, first of all, let me just tell you that I am not going to try to respond to every point in your post. Not that I don't want to but simply that it makes for an incredibly long post that no one would want to read. If I skip over something that you want me to address specifically, just point...

He, Doug McBurney and I have a date to meet together and talk about thing in 10,000 years. I intend to keep that date. Cool! :cool:

This first section of the essay makes me miss Bob Enyart so much! I wish I could have heard Bob's argument! I wish I could call him right now and ask him about this topic. I still can't believe he's gone. :( I'm reminded of when I was first exposed to Bob Enyart, watching his nightly TV show...

Gary, I have to say that I like your posts. You seem to think clearly and you ask good questions. I am, however, a bit baffled by the following.... As for the point you're making, I can follow what you're saying here but I can't resist pointing out the contradiction inherent in thinking that...

I see your point. Excellent point. I am hoping, however, that he's intellectually honest enough to engage the discussion on the merits and not on the superficiality of a mere label. I was literally stunned when I found them! I went searching for quotes from Calvin on various topics precisely...

I agree.

Not really. It is specifically Calvinists who believe that God saves/punishes people for no reason... “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8) “Therefore, those whom God passes...

It should be pointed out that those points are not my mere opinion. Each point is substanciated biblically in the thread I linked too. Are there any of them that you reject? Saved from what? That's a whopping big "If"! Most, if not all, children do not need saved. Romans 3:20b ...by the law...

The following is an essay written several years ago by a poster here that went by the user name "Lion" (if memory serves me correctly!). He was a member of Bob Enyart's congregation at the time and may still be a member of that church. The point being that I am not the author of what follows but...

Gary, Okay, so based on your opening post, I would be strongly inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and proceed as though you ARE NOT saved. (i.e. I'd rather assume you aren't saved and be wrong than to assume you are saved and be wrong so whenever there's any doubt, the default is...

Yes, we spent several weeks hashing out what was the bare minimum of what one needed to believe in order to be saved. It was a good exchange! I particularly like that thread because its one of the times where I've been convinced to change my position on an important point. I started the thread...