ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

OK… I gotta vent.

I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology. But there are some times I simply can’t be patient or cordial because this twisted sick, perverted theology is sometimes too much to handle.

Today I was listening to a Christian station on the radio. And there was a public service spot which featured a woman explaining a heart wrenching story. She explained that she was diagnosed with Leukemia on her child’s first birthday. She explained that she was treated with intense chemotherapy. She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked:

Can you imagine that?

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser?

People are just plain stupid.

:dunce:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

P.S. Please note that this thread is in the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum so if you are coming in here to mock God please think otherwise.

I would rather discuss this concept from a Christian or biblical stance.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

 

[Melody]

What's to discuss?

I worked ICU for many years and 90 % of my patient's were there because of drug, alcohol, tobacco, or food abuse.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Melody

What's to discuss?

I guess nothing.

 

[Turbo]

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Knight

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world?

Yeah, but the rebellion and sin were all part of the big plan.

But wait... if God's will was to force man to rebel, then the rebellion wasn't really a rebellion at all.

And sin is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." But Calvinists claim to know that all sin is God's will. :dizzy:

 

[Christine]

Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Turbo

Yeah, but the rebellion and sin were all part of the big plan.

Yep, they were.

But wait... if God's will was to force man to rebel, then the rebellion wasn't really a rebellion at all.

Huh? Man is still responsible for his actions, including sin.

And sin is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." But Calvinists claim to know that all sin is God's will. :dizzy:

The sin may have been predestined, but man is still held responsible for that sin.

 

[Nineveh]

Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Christine
The sin may have been predestined, but man is still held responsible for that sin.

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point? Everything was going fine until Eve dropped the ball.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Knight--concerning post #1 on this thread: I guess you never read the book of Job. it is filled with Job's afflictions, and numerous times through it, Job ascribes his toubles to God's determinations concerning him. "For He performs the thing that is appointed for me..." (this is only one of MANY references wherein Job confesses God's absolute, all encompassing providential rule over him)

Maybe you never read Ephesians either, because it says that God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will.

Oops! Must have missed Romans also, because what Paul speaks there is in strict accord with Job and Ephesians--"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever"(11:36"

Oh no! You also missed Daniel: "He does according to His will in the army of heaven AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH, and none can stay His hand or say unto Him, what are you doing."

And the Psalms--"whatsoever the LORD pleased that did He in heaven and in earth, in the seas and all deep places."

And besides these, you missed a number of places in Scripture which state clearly that god afflicts people with illnesses.

Well, Knight, if you read the Bible carefully through again, maybe you won't miss so much next time.

 

[Granite]

"Bad things" happen on God's watch, because of him, and with his approval.

I don't know what's worse: the idea that such things such as cancer or the Holocaust take him by surprise, or being forced to acknowledge that such events are part of The Masterplan.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Turbo--in post #5, you say, "...if God's will was to force man to rebel..."

That is a prime example of the way you arminians never dare deal with Scripture honestly as you struggle against God's sovereignty.

Let me see you back up your idea that God "forced" man to rebel. You won't find your arrogant ascription of such a thing to God in scripture, nor will you find such foolish prattle from a person of reformed persuasion.

EITHER BACK UP YOUR ABOMINABLE SPEECH OR ELSE APOLOGISE.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

A major problem with Arminians--they never stop trying to fit God into the small mold which they imagine for Him.

Any scripture which rebukes their foolishness is just overlooked. For some reason, they have never grown up enough theologically to desire a view of scripture which can reconcile all scriptures together without contradiction.

They are more like Job's three friends who blamed his illness on Job's wickedness than they are like Job who ascribed his afflictions to God.
Nevertheless, in the end, God rebuked Job's friends rather than Job.

 

[Clete]

Rolf Ernst,

Turbo and Knight are not Arminian.

Arminian's are too Calvinistic for them (and me, by the way)!

 

[Granite]

I just imagine both sides dying, going to heaven, and getting ushered into a classroom. "Hey! Hey, folks! New arrivals! Attention please. Yeeeah. Great. Hey, can I have a show of hands? You TULIP guys? Five pointers? Even four and a half pointers, yeah, over there. Form a line. Super. And you folks? Rest of you? Over here please. Yeeep. Yeah, see, we've got some explaining to do."

Either DEPROGRAMMING FOR FREEWILLERS or DECONSTRUCTING CALVIN. One way or another, SOMEONE will have some re-education to go through...

 

[Z Man]

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Knight

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind?

No one is saying that mankind has no responsibility, or that we do not do "bad things". Every Calvinists I know would agree with you on that one. And I think that's where a lot of confusion and "straw men" are drawn by the OV'ers/Arminians. They do not understand that we (Calvinists) believe man is responsible, and yet, God is absolutely Sovereign as well. Scriptures teach both.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Rolf Ernst,

Turbo and Knight are not Arminian.

Arminian's are too Calvinistic for them (and me, by the way)!

What's the difference? You both believe in free-will and that God can be "frustrated" and His will thwarted (although Scripture plainly tells us otherwise).

 

[Z Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Nineveh

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point?

To display His glory and love. The act was done to self-exalt Himself. As a bonus, we who are chosen are saved. But that is done to glorify Himself as well.

Eph 1:5, 9
...having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ... having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself...

Php 2:13
...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Heb 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[Christine]

Zman, just curious, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Christine

Zman, just curious, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

In the words of Jonathan Edwards, who said in the Preface to his great book on THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."

By the way, I find your signature very amusing! :chuckle:

 

[Christine]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Nineveh

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point? Everything was going fine until Eve dropped the ball.

The point of Jesus's death? To be a sacrifice for the elect.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Z Man

In the words of Jonathan Edwards, who said in the Preface to his great book on THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."

So, does this mean you're a full 5-pointer?

By the way, I find your signature very amusing! :chuckle:

Thanks. He really said that, too.