Theology Club: Book of Life

chickenman

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Desert Reign mentioned that he had some thoughts on my idea (about which I'm not dogmatic) that the subtitle of The Book of Life (Rev. 13:8; 17:8) is "of the Lamb Slain." So I'm starting this thread in case you (DR) are interested in sharing those thoughts. I'm interested in hearing them, guessing that you see it differently than I do. I'm open and all ears.

Thanks!

Randy
 

Desert Reign

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Not got much time to reply so just quick.

Every book has a title even if it doesn't, so to speak. It might be a research paper with the explicit title "An enquiry into the behaviour of molluscs when faced with severe estuary salinity fluctuation" or it might be a book without an explicit title whose subject is 'first draft manuscript proposal for a science fiction novel set in the 3rd millenium in an environment where FTL travel has been ruled out'.

The title of the book in question is (in my view) an implicit one "The up to date record of all the names of those from the foundation of the world who have life through faith in the slain lamb."

There's an issue with timing here. Paul explains or alludes to this in the passage I cited in Romans. Christ died at the appointed time in history but his death is efficacious for all who who have faith throughout the ages.

Names can be both written into the book and written out of it. If a person turns away from God then his name will be taken out of the book. So the book is correct at all times. That is the reason in its context why all those whose names are not written in it will worship the beast.
 
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Lighthouse

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Could be. As I said, I'm open. That could make sense.
If "the Lamb slain" were part of the name then it would mean, that at the least, the Lamb was scheduled to be slain from the foundation of the world. Also, the fact that "slain" is not capitalized tells me that those who translated it did not think it part of the title, as English dictates it would be if it were part of the title.

Not got much time to reply so just quick.

Every book has a title even if it doesn't, so to speak. It might be a research paper with the explicit title "An enquiry into the behaviour of molluscs when faced with severe estuary salinity fluctuation" or it might be a book without an explicit title whose subject is 'first draft manuscript proposal for a science fiction novel set in the 3rd millenium in an environment where FTL travel has been ruled out'.

The title of the book in question is (in my view) an implicit one "The up to date record of all the names of those from the foundation of the world who have life through faith in the slain lamb."

There's an issue with timing here. Paul explains or alludes to this in the passage I cited in Romans. Christ died at the appointed time in history but his death is efficacious for all who who have faith throughout the ages.

Names can be both written into the book and written out of it. If a person turns away from God then his name will be taken out of the book. So the book is correct at all times. That is the reason in its context why all those whose names are not written in it will worship the beast.
Except the Bible never states names can be erased.
 

Desert Reign

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If "the Lamb slain" were part of the name then it would mean, that at the least, the Lamb was scheduled to be slain from the foundation of the world. Also, the fact that "slain" is not capitalized tells me that those who translated it did not think it part of the title, as English dictates it would be if it were part of the title.


Except the Bible never states names can be erased.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. By way of analogy (i.e. in support of the general principle) you could cite this (a favourite of OVers)

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

I say it's a favourite of OVers - it seems to me that the idea of OSAS conflicts with the whole notion of an open future. How do you fit that into your view of an open future? What does an open future mean to you?
 
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chickenman

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If "the Lamb slain" were part of the name then it would mean, that at the least, the Lamb was scheduled to be slain from the foundation of the world.
No it wouldn't, since the way you're using "from the foundation..." here must (the context of your point) refer to a point in time. But I see it as a reference to something more like "from the start until now." So the verse, as I see it, is referring to names being written in the book over the period of time spanning from that beginning until the end.
Also, the fact that "slain" is not capitalized tells me that those who translated it did not think it part of the title, as English dictates it would be if it were part of the title.
They also didn't capitalize "book of life."


Except the Bible never states names can be erased.
I didn't know you didn't believe names couldn't be removed from the book, Lighthouse. That's interesting to hear.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:5​
What about the one (circumcision believers, in context) who didn't overcome?
 

Desert Reign

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I didn't know you didn't believe names couldn't be removed from the book, Lighthouse. That's interesting to hear.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:5​
What about the one (circumcision believers, in context) who didn't overcome?

It seems to me that verse 3, in its context with verse 5 implies that indeed one can be crossed out of the book of life.

Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you eas a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
 

chickenman

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It seems to me that verse 3, in its context with verse 5 implies that indeed one can be crossed out of the book of life.

Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you eas a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

I agree. Which is in harmony with God's plan for Israel that required that individuals remain faithful or else miss out on the inheritance promised unto them. John, having been commissioned with the gospel of the circumcision, wrote to his countrymen who had scattered to those seven churches in Asia (to which he writes in Revelation). So it makes sense for him to pass along to them warnings that were consistent with what they knew all to well as part of God's dealings with them.
 

Nang

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There are multiple books that will be opened on Judgement Day. (Revelation 20:12)

There is a list of names written in "book of the living" (Psalm 69:28)
that are not necessarily written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

IOW's, there is a book of all created, and another book of all re-created spiritually through the righteousness, grace, and power of the "Lamb" Jesus Christ.

Failure to make distinction between those who are universally granted physical and earthly life, and those who are redeemed to live spiritually and everlastingly by faith in the Son of God . . . can cause horrible confusion that disfigures the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Nang
 
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Lighthouse

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. By way of analogy (i.e. in support of the general principle) you could cite this (a favourite of OVers)
But an argument from silence is an argument from silence.

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

I say it's a favourite of OVers - it seems to me that the idea of OSAS conflicts with the whole notion of an open future. How do you fit that into your view of an open future? What does an open future mean to you?
Some things are settled. I do not believe the future to be completely unsettled, nor do I know of any OV proponents who do.

No it wouldn't, since the way you're using "from the foundation..." here must (the context of your point) refer to a point in time. But I see it as a reference to something more like "from the start until now." So the verse, as I see it, is referring to names being written in the book over the period of time spanning from that beginning until the end.
I agree. I am simply stating that if such were the name of the Book then it would have always been the name of the Book and thus the plan for the Lamb to be slain would have existed from the time the Book began, which this verse indicates was the foundation of the world.

They also didn't capitalize "book of life."
They did in the English translations, to which I was referring.

I didn't know you didn't believe names couldn't be removed from the book, Lighthouse. That's interesting to hear.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:5​
What about the one (circumcision believers, in context) who didn't overcome?
I don't necessarily believe names could not, however I do believe those in the Body cannot, but I don't argue that names can without a verse to back it up.

Psalm 60:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Are the book of the living and the Book of Life the same book?

Also, you mean Psalm 69:28.
 

Desert Reign

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Some things are settled. I do not believe the future to be completely unsettled, nor do I know of any OV proponents who do.

Surely if believers are automatically guaranteed eternal life whatever they do after they are saved (even perhaps subsequently deciding they wanted nothing of Christ at all) then that is a whole lot of settling?
 

OMEGA

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Desert Reign said,

Surely if believers are automatically guaranteed eternal life whatever they do after they are saved (even perhaps subsequently deciding they wanted nothing of Christ at all) then that is a whole lot of settling?
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The Problem comes when Jesus says that those that ENDURE to the End are Saved.

Mr 13:13 ....but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

JESUS and God have HIGH Standards and there are certain Qualities that must be met.
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Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;

and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they

crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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Doormat

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Are the book of the living and the Book of Life the same book?

I believe so. A number of translations render the verse "Book of Life" instead of "book of the living." For example:

Psalm 69:28 NASB May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
 

Doormat

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There are multiple books that will be opened on Judgement Day. (Revelation 20:12)

The verse shows that unlike the Book of Life, the other books only contain a record of the works of the unrighteous dead.

There is a list of names written in "book of the living" (Psalm 69:28)
that are not necessarily written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

IOW's, there is a book of all created, and another book of all re-created spiritually through the righteousness, grace, and power of the "Lamb" Jesus Christ.

On what scriptural basis do you believe they are two different books? If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?
 

Lighthouse

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Surely if believers are automatically guaranteed eternal life whatever they do after they are saved (even perhaps subsequently deciding they wanted nothing of Christ at all) then that is a whole lot of settling?
That is only one thing that is settled.

If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?
Where is it stated, other than the verse you quoted, that names are blotted out of the Book of Life?
 

Nang

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On what scriptural basis do you believe they are two different books? If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?

Names are not blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Rev. 3:5

This is a promise to the redeemed in Christ, from Christ.
 

Doormat

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Where is it stated, other than the verse you quoted, that names are blotted out of the Book of Life?

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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