God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit

GregoryN

New member
Did Christ die & shed His blood for all sins, including the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Does Love Omnipotent love those people who've committed any sin?

TDNT is "one of the most widely-used and well-respected theological dictionaries ever created". It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Did Christ die & shed His blood for all sins, including the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Does Love Omnipotent love those people who've committed any sin?

TDNT is "one of the most widely-used and well-respected theological dictionaries ever created". It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

And your definition of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Did Christ die & shed His blood for all sins, including the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Does Love Omnipotent love those people who've committed any sin?

TDNT is "one of the most widely-used and well-respected theological dictionaries ever created". It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

He died for all sins that are forgivable
 

GregoryN

New member
“...neither in Matthew 12, Mark 3, Luke 12...are we told that [the] penalty which includes unending divine wrath even as interminable human misery, shall accrue to those who blaspheme the spirit.”

“Wherever we read that sin shall not be pardoned, or forgiven, the sense is simply that whatever the just penalty may be for such a misdeed, it will not be remitted, or let go. It does not follow, however, from the phrase, concerning him “that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost,” that “it shall not be forgiven” him (Luke 12:10, AV), that that from which he shall not be “forgiven” (i.e., released) is a penalty consisting of abiding estrangement from God in the presence of eternal burnings.”

"Where we read in this verse, as in the Concordant Version, that "the one who blasphemes the holy spirit shall not be pardoned" the implicit idea, conveyed through the figure of ellipsis, is that such a one shall not be pardoned from the penalty which justly accrues to this sin. From a literary standpoint, it is simply incorrect to interpret such texts as if their sense were, “shall not be pardoned,” from a penalty consisting of or incorporating a specific woe, namely, that of eternal separation from God.”

“Such verses say nothing as to the nature of the penalty for such disobedience; to claim that they do manifests a deficiency of reading comprehension. Or, in the case of any who are aware that these texts, indeed, do not reveal the nature of the penalty which accrues to this sin and yet argue as if these texts did contain such information, the error then becomes that of circular reasoning, assuming what is at issue as if it had been proved. Such an error is exacerbated by making such arguments on the basis of our texts under consideration (i.e., Matt. 12:31,32; Mark 3:28-30; Luke 12:8-10), ones which are incapable of answering such a question.”

“The Blasphemy of the Spirit and Overwhelming Grace, and “Unpardonable” Sin” booklet, p.11-12)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Blasphemy+of+the+Spirit.pdf
 

Squeaky

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BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT (5 STEPS)
Matt 12:30-32
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
I Jn 5:16
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
2 Pet 2:21
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
1Thes 5:19
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
Luke 12:10
10 "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.
Matt 26:24
24 "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
Matt 21:19
19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." And immediately the fig tree withered away.
(NKJ)

There are 5 steps in blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Heb 6-4 defines blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Only preachers that have gone through these 5 steps can be unforgiven of blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Until one gets through all 5 steps they will be back sliding, or stumbling, or blaspheming. But if one gets through all 5 steps and then turns away. or says no to the Holy Spirit. Even now there are only two acceptable responses to the Holy Spirit. Obey or repent. They will never be called back. The milk understanding is 3 to 4 years long. The meat understanding is 11 years long. At the end of the 14 years one should come to revelations from Jesus. To rewrite his conscience. The conscience being your book of beliefs in your mind. But it takes the whole 14 years to crucify the flesh. I have been receiving these revelations now for 10 years. And if you will look in Gal 1-9 through Gal 2-2 you will see where Paul is exsplaining how long it takes to start receiving revelations of Christ.

2 Cor 11:12-15
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
(NKJ)

Heb 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(NKJ)

2 Pet 3:5-6
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
(NKJ)

2 Pet 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
(NKJ)

[Mar 3:27-29
27 "No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.
28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"--
 

GregoryN

New member
He died for all sins that are forgivable

Is Love Omnipotent incapable of forgiving any sin?

Is this sin forgivable:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme

TDNT is "one of the most widely-used and well-respected theological dictionaries ever created". It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).
 

GregoryN

New member
Why would God love those who are committing the unpardonable sin?

Why would a mother not love her son who received "life imprisonment", was "not pardoned" by the governor, served his full sentence & was released from prison after 20 years?

If his crime were "unpardonable" according to justice, he was released after serving the punishment for it, and still could be forgiven by his mother & those he harmed.

God is love. Does He cease being love so He can be the opposite of love, i.e. a sadistic monster infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined?
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
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Why would a mother not love her son who received "life imprisonment", was "not pardoned" by the governor, served his full sentence & was released from prison after 20 years?

If his crime were "unpardonable" according to justice, he was released after serving the punishment for it, and still could be forgiven by his mother & those he harmed.

God is love. Does He cease being love so He can be the opposite of love, i.e. a sadistic monster infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined?

Will God pardon the unpardonable? Look at what you wrote.
 

GregoryN

New member
Will God pardon the unpardonable? Look at what you wrote.

Let's say a criminal whose punishment according to God's law of justice is to be stoned to death & he "shall not be pardoned" (i.e. "not be let off" the hook for this crime's punishment), so the people stone him to death. Just because the criminal was "not pardoned" (let off) from the due punishment of stoning and his crime was, in that sense, "unpardonable", that does not mean Love Omnipotent, i.e. God, ceased to love him or was incapable of - forgiving - the criminal for his - sin - postmortem if & when he confessed & repented.

Compare these verses in Numbers 15 which some commentaries have linked to the Spirit blasphemy Synoptic passages in the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark & Luke:

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be pardoned. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

Luke 12:10 And everyone who shall be declaring a word against the Son of Man, it shall be pardoned him, yet the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit shall not be pardoned.

Luke 12:10 does not say what the penalty for blasphemy is that will "not be pardoned". Compare the Old Testament passages above, where the penalty was death. Likewise when Ananias & Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, they died physically (Acts 5):

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10).

Compare also the following, which refer to death as the penalty:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

1 Cor.11:27 Therefore whoever should eat the bread or should drink the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and in this manner let him eat of the bread, and let him drink of the cup.
29 For the one eating and drinking not discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30 Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and many are fallen asleep.

2 Chr.16:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.
17 So He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans, who put their choice young men to the sword in the sanctuary, sparing neither young men nor young women, neither elderly nor infirm. God gave them all into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

And revealed it hath been in mine ears, By Jehovah of Hosts: Not pardoned is this iniquity to you, Till ye die, said the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)

What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
 

quip

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Banned
Did Christ die & shed His blood for all sins, including the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Does Love Omnipotent love those people who've committed any sin?

TDNT is "one of the most widely-used and well-respected theological dictionaries ever created". It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

If blasphemy denotes the Christian exclusivity regarding the conscious rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man?

The answer is thus, yes!
 

GregoryN

New member
John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Is unbelief a sin that God doesn't pardon & Christ didn't die for?
 

GregoryN

New member
Luke says it won’t be forgiven.

The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." https://biblehub.com/greek/863.htm

Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remit
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.

Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.


Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next.

Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".

Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world.

Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.

We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.
 

GregoryN

New member
"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."

"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."

Tom Talbott

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/unpardon.htm
 
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