ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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Nang

Nang

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The forgiving and saving grace of God comes to sinners unconditionally through faith; not by works.

Repentance is not required to be forgiven (justified) by God; rather repentance is evidence the sinner has been saved by God's power and grace, through gifted faith, alone.

All empirical and scriptural knowledge, denies any hope of universal forgiveness (atonement). Such is simply wishful thinking, that only perverts the Truth.

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."
 
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Danoh

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A gift bought and paid for still requires that one receive it.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

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Danoh said:
A gift bought and paid for still requires that one receive it.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
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:thumb:
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

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Repentance is not required to be forgiven (justified) by God; rather repentance is evidence the sinner has been saved by God's power and grace, through gifted faith, alone.
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A sorrow for sins comes first. That drives the sinner to God for forgiveness.

"And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Bradley D said:
A sorrow for sins comes first. That drives the sinner to God for forgiveness.
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Which sorrow is the result of a changed and regenerated heart.

Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26

Godly regeneration of the human heart, precedes faith and repentance.

Repentance and faith do not produce grace.
Grace produces repentance and faith.
 
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Sonnet

Sonnet

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Nang said:
The forgiving and saving grace of God comes to sinners unconditionally through faith; not by works.

Repentance is not required to be forgiven (justified) by God; rather repentance is evidence the sinner has been saved by God's power and grace, through gifted faith, alone.
Click to expand...

Paul preached repentance (Acts 26:20) and clearly states belief comes before the sealing of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13).

All empirical and scriptural knowledge, denies any hope of universal forgiveness (atonement). Such is simply wishful thinking, that only perverts the Truth.
Click to expand...

Paul and the apostles preached, 'Christ died for our sins,' indiscriminately so, obviously, the atonement was for all. Those that repent and believe receive that which is offered.

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."
Click to expand...

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Since all men without exception are sinners, then Paul's use of 'many' (in 'many were made sinners') equates to 'all'. Your argument would make only some men sinners.

Nang - are all men sinners or not?
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Nang said:
Which sorrow is the result of a changed and regenerated heart.

Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26

Godly regeneration of the human heart, precedes faith and repentance.

Repentance and faith do not produce grace.
Grace produces repentance and faith.
Click to expand...

Ezekiel 36:37-38
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Nang said:
First, I do not "preach" anything, let alone a "universal atonement".

Rather, I proclaim the Truth of Holy Scriptures that reveal the Everlasting Covenant of Triune God.
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This what you said:
"I proclaim the same Gospel Paul proclaimed, and I do so indiscriminately to all around me"

Preach - Publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief):
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preach

The Gospel Paul proclaimed:

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

v.11
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Nang, do you proclaim this Gospel or not? Indiscriminately or not?
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Nang said:
No. Jesus was counted as a man and He was sinless.

All theory of Universalism, in any of its forms, is scripturally untenable.
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Since all men are sinners (Jesus being the exception), then Paul's use of 'many' (in 'many were made sinners') equates to 'all'. Your argument would make only some men sinners.

Are all men sinners or not?
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Sonnet said:
This what you said:
"I proclaim the same Gospel Paul proclaimed, and I do so indiscriminately to all around me"

Preach - Publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief):
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preach

The Gospel Paul proclaimed:

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

v.11
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Nang, do you proclaim this Gospel or not? Indiscriminately or not?
Click to expand...

I proclaim the Gospel of the entire bible that reveals the Everlasting Covenant of God.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Sonnet said:
Since all men are sinners (Jesus being the exception), then Paul's use of 'many' (in 'many were made sinners') equates to 'all'. Your argument would make only some men sinners.

Are all men sinners or not?
Click to expand...

The "exception" rules out Universalism . . . Unless you desire to consider Jesus Christ less than truly human and deny He was/is a true Son of Man!
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Sonnet said:
Does that include telling unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins' - just as Paul did?

1 Corinthians 15:3,11; 2:2.
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A testimony, stating amongst fellow believers, that Christ died for our sins, does not portend to judge the eternal fate of any or all who hear our witness.

Spiritual application upon others of our confession of faith, resides in the power of God, not in our knowledge of their ultimate fate.

IOW's, you do not need to know the destiny of another soul, to witness the gospel Truth to a soul.
 
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