Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

[Jerry Shugart]

While He walked the earth the Lord Jesus was certainly aware of the prophecies which foretold of His death. In fact, He said the following about His impending death and burial:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt.12:40).​

Yet despite the prophecies concerning His sufferings and His own words concerning His death on the eve of the crucifixion we see Him praying to the Father in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.

The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was closed.

So we can know with absolute certainity that the future is open.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

As is typical, the unsettled theist confuses the humanity of Christ speaking within Scripture from the divinity. Consider deeper study of the pactum salutis.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

While He walked the earth the Lord Jesus was certainly aware of the prophecies which foretold of His death. In fact, He said the following about His impending death and burial:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt.12:40).​

Yet despite the prophecies concerning His sufferings and His own words concerning His death on the eve of the crucifixion we see Him praying to the Father in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.



The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was closed.



So we can know with absolute certainity that the future is open.

"My God why hast thou forsaken me"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As is typical, the unsettled theist confuses the humanity of Christ speaking within Scripture from the divinity. Consider deeper study of the pactum salutis.

So as a Man the Lord Jesus was confused and that explains His words at Matthew 26:39?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"My God why hast thou forsaken me"

So you think that what the Lord said there was not true?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So as a Man the Lord Jesus was confused and that explains His words at Matthew 26:39?

Jerry,

There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them. The human nature of Jesus was speaking here, staggering under the weight of what was to come, the cup, that is, the wrath of God. While in this terrible state, note how our Lord, while shrinking from this coming wrath, refused to shrink from doing the eternal will of God, pactum salutis, perfectly willing to drink of the last drop of the cup for those whom He was sent.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

So as a Man the Lord Jesus was confused and that explains His words at Matthew 26:39?

As a man Yeshua felt pain and was tempted. How can God possibly be tempted? It was only possible because He humbled himself and took the form of a servant. Because Yeshua did this He subjected Himself to the very same weaknesses that we all experience in our flesh except that He was without sin.

He had the right to fear what was about to happen, He even had the right to ask God why God had forsaken Him but these statements are not given for us to run roughshod with. Nothing about that statement means that what the future held was open to change. That is folly in the highest order. What these statements do show, sadly is the emotional side of the extreme suffering Messiah endured for us. If our God and Savior was unsettled and anxious about the beating that the evil one was going to lay on Him then we should note that suffering. Not come up with a doctrine like open 4 change future.
I guess we need to think deeper about all that happened when Christ "died for us". It was not just God dying our death, it was God adding our humanity to Himself and feeling real pain and suffering, physically and emotionally.

When I was young I loved the sport of boxing. I was proud of the fact that I could actually step into the ring against a superior athlete like a long distance runner or even professional trained soldiers that were in top condition but after 3 minutes these guys would be bending over with their hands on their knees in exhaustion. They were not acclimated to the emotional stress of fighting/boxing and even tho they could run for hours and win in other physical competitions in mine they were reduced to nothing until they experienced it and learned to endure.

Yeshua was savagely beaten by the evil one. Naked. I hope you consider the fact that as a man Yeshua had not been subjected to physical torture or cruelty as He knew He was willing to endure. You and I should contemplate on the real suffering and real death that was ours in Messiah.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them.

All you do is show your limited understanding of the fact that God exists outside of time. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Since that is true then verses that speak of God's foreknowledge cannot be understood in a literal sense. John Wesley had the same understanding of this:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostles words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He had the right to fear what was about to happen, He even had the right to ask God why God had forsaken Him but these statements are not given for us to run roughshod with.

Here we see that the Lord Jesus was made sin for us:

" For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).​

We also know that sin leads to a separation of the Holy God:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

When the Son was forsaken by the Father a separation between the two happened.

Just as "physical" death is a separation of the physicalbody from the soul a "spiritual" death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God.

It was when the Lord was forsaken by the Father that the penalty for our "spiritual" death was paid. When a person believes he is not only baptized into the Lord Jesus' physical death but also into that "spiritual" death.

 

[intojoy]

If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

Here we see that the Lord Jesus was made sin for us:

" For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).​

We also know that sin leads to a separation of the Holy God:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

When the Son was forsaken by the Father a separation between the two happened.



Just as "physical" death is a separation of the physicalbody from the soul a "spiritual" death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God.



It was when the Lord was forsaken by the Father that the penalty for our "spiritual" death was paid. When a person believes he is not only baptized into the Lord Jesus' physical death but also into that "spiritual" death.

Why did He need to ask that? Forsaken me ??

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why did He need to ask that? Forsaken me ??

Ask Him.

 

[journey]

John 7:28-34 KJV
28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John 7:28-34 KJV
28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

So what is your point?

 

[journey]

So what is your point?

Simple - Jesus Christ knew He was going to the Cross and when.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Simple - Jesus Christ knew He was going to the Cross and when.

But that does not explain what He said here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.

The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was closed.

 

[journey]

But that does not explain what He said here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.

The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was closed.

I think that you already know the answer, or you should. Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God. That was the human side of Jesus Christ, yet He still knew that He would go to the cross and when.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think that you already know the answer, or you should. Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God. That was the human side of Jesus Christ, yet He still knew that He would go to the cross and when.

Did the Lord Jesus think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross, especially when we look at His prayer to the Father on the eve of the crucifixion?:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

All you do is show your limited understanding of the fact that God exists outside of time. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Since that is true then verses that speak of God's foreknowledge cannot be understood in a literal sense. John Wesley had the same understanding of this:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostles words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

I suppose there is a pony in there somewhere, Jerry, but you will have to relate this to the context of my responses related to our Lord's pending crucifixion.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I suppose there is a pony in there somewhere, Jerry, but you will have to relate this to the context of my responses related to our Lord's pending crucifixion.

My response was in regard to what you said here:

"There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them."​

Here you are putting the actions of God into a sequence, where He first ordained something to happen and then that thing happened. However, the Calvinistic understanding of God's timelessness is expressed here by William Ames:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

 

[journey]

Did the Lord Jesus think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross, especially when we look at His prayer to the Father on the eve of the crucifixion?:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

No.

John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.