ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[Lighthouse]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

 

[Interplanner]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

lol, the nations were not under contract. You need to know Gal 3-4 better, my friend. The law was a child trainer to illustrate certain things that would not work. It is Judaism that THINKS there are two distinct groups. Or continues to. They didn't 'get' it when Christ came and taught.

 

[Lighthouse]

lol, the nations were not under contract. You need to know Gal 3-4 better, my friend. The law was a child trainer to illustrate certain things that would not work. It is Judaism that THINKS there are two distinct groups. Or continues to. They didn't 'get' it when Christ came and taught.

Who said anything about a contract?

Also, can you tell me when the Law was abolished?

 

[Interplanner]

Who said anything about a contract?

Also, can you tell me when the Law was abolished?

A covenant is partly a contract. But the respondents part is not written by him; it is written by God, which in the ancient model is called the 'suzerain'--the king who rescued or 'owns' a group of people.

The law's ethical statements are not abolished in history. But the idea that it was an alternate way to gain grace is a human mistake or delusion that was popularized after the exile. Paul sought to 'abolish' that. That's why Rom 3 says both that the Gospel is 'apart from the Law' and that the 'Law is upheld.'

 

[jamie]

Also, can you tell me when the Law was abolished?

I can.

 

[Lighthouse]

A covenant is partly a contract. But the respondents part is not written by him; it is written by God, which in the ancient model is called the 'suzerain'--the king who rescued or 'owns' a group of people.

That doesn't answer the question. And it stands against the idea that the Body of Christ is under a covenant; as there is no contract.

The law's ethical statements are not abolished in history. But the idea that it was an alternate way to gain grace is a human mistake or delusion that was popularized after the exile. Paul sought to 'abolish' that. That's why Rom 3 says both that the Gospel is 'apart from the Law' and that the 'Law is upheld.'

Irrelevant to the issue at hand. Especially since no one is speaking of the Law as an alternate route to grace.

I can.

If you could you would have done so, you godless cretin.

 

[jamie]

If you could you would have done so, you godless cretin.

You should attack ideas, not people.

 

[Interplanner]

That doesn't answer the question. And it stands against the idea that the Body of Christ is under a covenant; as there is no contract.


Irrelevant to the issue at hand. Especially since no one is speaking of the Law as an alternate route to grace.


If you could you would have done so, you godless cretin.

You like to sound authoritative but all you are doing is polarizing. When you get to the new covenant, you probably know that it is not with the 'many' directly. The new covenant is between God and Christ. All those who are in Christ will be blessed as he was in resurrection. So there was partly a contract (Father, if there is another way, let this cup pass...) and it was successfully accomplished.

The question about the Law was whether it was abolished. That has a specific meaning to the post-exile follower of Judaism, as Paul used it. He meant that there was no obligating God through the Law, which there never was originally, but certainly became a popular thought in post-exile Judaism.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You like to sound authoritative but all you are doing is polarizing.

The irony...

 

[Wick Stick]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

I realize you don't really believe in studying the Old Testament. If you had studied it, though, you would know that Israel was divided into two distinct groups shortly after the death of king Solomon.

 

[DAN P]

I realize you don't really believe in studying the Old Testament. If you had studied it, though, you would know that Israel was divided into two distinct groups shortly after the death of king Solomon.

Hi and SO , Explain Rom 4:16 , IF you can ??

dan p

 

[Danoh]

I realize you don't really believe in studying the Old Testament. If you had studied it, though, you would know that Israel was divided into two distinct groups shortly after the death of king Solomon.

There is Israel in general, and there is the Believing remnant out of the rest of Israel.

That right there is two groups.

And both are the issue of Abraham after...he was in Circumcision.

And only the latter of those two physical sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the group that is in Isaac...spiritually.

As Isaac was born of God, they are born of God spiritually...

But Abraham also has another seed - a spiritual one that goes back to before he was in Circumcision.

Those Gentiles who believe God.

This is Abraham when he was still UNcircumcision.

Genesis 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

That is this...

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

And then there is Abraham's seed after he was Circumcision...

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You have two groups of Believers.

The Believing remnant of Israel in Isaac before Israel fell (the Little Flock - the Israel...of God).

At which point they were sealed, and the rest were concluded hardened.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

And then you have both formerly lost Jews (spiritual Uncircumcision, Acts 7:51-53; Rom. 2:23-25) and Gentiles (Uncircumcision) this side of unbelieving Israel's fall: the Body of Christ...fellow citizens with the saints (with the Little Flock...the Israel...of God).

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Wick Stick]

Hi and SO , Explain Rom 4:16 , IF you can ??

dan p

I believe I already did, in a thread a week or two ago, at your request.

A "stock" question, perhaps?

 

[Wick Stick]

There is Israel in general, and there is the Believing remnant out of the rest of Israel.

That right there is two groups.

And both are the issue of Abraham after...he was in Circumcision.

And only the latter of those two physical sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the group that is in Isaac...spiritually.

As Isaac was born of God, they are born of God spiritually...

But Abraham also has another seed - a spiritual one that goes back to before he was in Circumcision.

Those Gentiles who believe God.

This is Abraham when he was still UNcircumcision.

Genesis 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

That is this...

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

And then there is Abraham's seed after he was Circumcision...

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You have two groups of Believers.

The Believing remnant of Israel in Isaac before Israel fell (the Little Flock - the Israel...of God).

At which point they were sealed, and the rest were concluded hardened.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

And then you have both formerly lost Jews (spiritual Uncircumcision, Acts 7:51-53; Rom. 2:23-25) and Gentiles (Uncircumcision) this side of unbelieving Israel's fall: the Body of Christ...fellow citizens with the saints (with the Little Flock...the Israel...of God).

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Good post, but too long.

The original names for the two divisions were the House of Judah and the House of Israel. I believe Jeremiah 31 is a topic of discussion, currently, and that is the language used there.

Realize, though, that the "House of Israel" wasn't just scattered, they were completely disowned (Hosea 1:8-10), divorced (Jer 3:8), and ceased to even exist as a distinct people (Isa 7:8, 1Pe 2:10), because they were so blended into the goyim.

The prophecy of this group in Jeremiah and elsewhere isn't just a reconciliation with Judah. The prophecy is that even though they don't so much as exist, they will be called out of the nations, come back, and start to exist again.

The work Jesus commissioned the twelve to, was to go into the nations and preach to "the lost sheep of the house of israel, so that they might be gathered.

However...

If you read John 8 critically and honestly, you will find the core teachings of Jesus as regards paternity and inheritance. The gist of it is that paternity may be determined by looking at behavior. Act like the devil, and it's because you born of the devil. Act like Abraham, and it's because you are his legitimate offspring.

Abraham believed. Those who believe as Abraham are, ipso facto, Abraham's offspring.

But the House of Israel is no longer under the Law, and no longer under circumcision. You see, they were divorced from that covenant; cut off utterly.

To add them back requires an adoption. They could have been added back to the circumcision, and indeed the commotion of Acts was about whether that was the right thing to do. However, the church recognized that the right thing to do was to add them back to Abraham, without adding them back to the Law and circumcision.

As Gen 17:4 says,

As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many goyim.

 

[turbosixx]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

The way I understand it, Abraham was declared righteous without being circumcised and not under the law of Moses.
Rom. 4:10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:


So that is the two groups who enter the body, those circumcised and those uncircumcised.

Rom. 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

 

[DAN P]

I believe I already did, in a thread a week or two ago, at your request.

A "stock" question, perhaps?

Hi and I must have missed it !!

Do it again ?

dan p

 

[patrick jane]

I can.

You so funny jamie :chuckle:

 

[northwye]

Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
"If you could you would have done so, you godless cretin.+

"You should attack ideas, not people. "

The Christian Zionists seem to be unable to restrain themselves and stop attacking individuals.

And for Romans 4:16 what exactly are they arguing for? That is not real clear if you look at what Paul says there.

"not to that only which is of the law; but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham.", In the Old Covenant the Jews had the law but the non-Jews did not have it..

"who is the father of us all;" whether Jews or Non-Jews, who are Christ's, and are Abraham's spiritual seed, and heirs of eternal life, according to the promise of grace.

 

[Nihilo]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

"The promise," is not just for "those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham," and there's only one promise.

ETA: re: "Glenn"
That TWD season 6 finale has got to be the worst cliff hanger ever.

 

[Lighthouse]

You should attack ideas, not people.

If you had any ideas I might. As it stands the so-called ideas coming from your camp aren't worth attacking. Especially since it isn't nice to beat up on the weak, and those "ideas" are weak.

You like to sound authoritative but all you are doing is polarizing. When you get to the new covenant, you probably know that it is not with the 'many' directly. The new covenant is between God and Christ. All those who are in Christ will be blessed as he was in resurrection. So there was partly a contract (Father, if there is another way, let this cup pass...) and it was successfully accomplished.

The Body of Christ did not exist when this covenant was made, therefore they are not part of it.

The question about the Law was whether it was abolished. That has a specific meaning to the post-exile follower of Judaism, as Paul used it. He meant that there was no obligating God through the Law, which there never was originally, but certainly became a popular thought in post-exile Judaism.

Your camp is the one making the argument that Jesus did not preach the Law, but only ever preached grace; yet Jesus said that He d not come to abolish the Law. I'll take His word over theirs.

I realize you don't really believe in studying the Old Testament. If you had studied it, though, you would know that Israel was divided into two distinct groups shortly after the death of king Solomon.

You know nothing about me.

The way I understand it, Abraham was declared righteous without being circumcised and not under the law of Moses.
Rom. 4:10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:

So that is the two groups who enter the body, those circumcised and those uncircumcised.

Rom. 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

The Body of Christ is not under the Law.

"The promise," is not just for "those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham," and there's only one promise.

And that means what?

It also doesn't answer the question.

ETA: re: "Glenn"
That TWD season 6 finale has got to be the worst cliff hanger ever.

What if the show had been canceled and it was never resolved?

The Christian Zionists seem to be unable to restrain themselves and stop attacking individuals.

We're not the ones calling names that shouldn't be repeated in church.

And what, exactly, makes us Zionists?

And for Romans 4:16 what exactly are they arguing for? That is not real clear if you look at what Paul says there.

"not to that only which is of the law; but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham.", In the Old Covenant the Jews had the law but the non-Jews did not have it..

"who is the father of us all;" whether Jews or Non-Jews, who are Christ's, and are Abraham's spiritual seed, and heirs of eternal life, according to the promise of grace.

So you agree there are two distinct groups?