R the 144,000 of Rev 7 the same as the 144,000 of Rev 14?

[RevTestament]

What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.

 

[RevTestament]

Seeing no takers, I will start with a few observations.
The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal, and are from every tribe of Israel except Dan, and are called the "children of Israel." Rev 7:4 Can this include Gentiles? The Lord says of Ephraim that he shall become many nations, and Hosea says Ephraim is scattered among the Gentiles. It seems some "Gentiles" may be of Ephraim literally.
In Revelation 14 the 144,000, are sealed with the name of the lamb's Father upon their foreheads. This great multitude is “purchased out of the earth,” and they are the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.” This doesn't imply that they are members of the tribes at all.
If the 144,000 of Rev 7 are the prophets of God were they "redeemed from the earth" or "from among men" or in other words from among the nations?
The 144,000 of Rev 14 sing a new song, which none can learn but them - can this be referring to the prophets of old?

OK that ought to be enough to start a lively discussion...

 

[northwye]

A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

In metaphoric language Revelation 14: 1 says the 144,000 stand with Christ, having the Father's name on their foreheads, on mount Zion. They stand in a high place spiritually, meaning they have been raised up high to stand with Jesus Christ. They sing a new song which no one but the 144,000 can learn - which is also metaphoric for a being in a higher spiritual state in their anointing and sealing. They are not defiled with woman, again in metaphoric language, and this fits with their not having guile, meaning they are not deceptive in a world filled with deception. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he leads, and are the firstfruits to God and Christ.

They are a remnant, but this language in Revelation 14 raises them up above other remnants in scripture, such as in Romans 11: 5, the remnant in which God began again his plan of redemption as the New Covenant. However, the Apostles of Christ, who were among that remnant, had a greater anointing directly from Christ than did most of the others There is also the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, who, at the time the serpent-dragon is casting out a flood of lies out of his mouth and is making war with this remnant, are said to have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But you have to go outside of the Book of Revelation to find out what the mission of the 144,000 is.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."................"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 11: 33-35 and Daniel 12: 3.

The dispensationalists will insist that all the 144,000 are all male Jews and will say that Daniel 11: 33-35 is not about the 144,000 because the 144,000 are not mentioned there. And Daniel 11: 33-35 could be applied to the work of the Apostles of Christ in the First Century, a fulfillment which does not necessarily mean it does not apply to the 144,000.

 

[Angel4Truth]

No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

 

[nonanomanon]

What say you? Have at it -
scriptural evidences please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o7HKqvuO1U

JUDGES 20:3 (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell [us], how was this wickedness?

Judges 20:3 says the body of Moses is representative of the 144,000. Which is the "Body of Benjamin", the Tribe associated with Heavenly Salvation. That must be removed in order to bring in the "Tribe of Joseph" for 150 days. 144,000 in Rev. 7 is taken by the Lord, and ............ Rev. 14:1-3 and Rev. 15:3, both reference the same 144,000. Judges 20 calls the Body of Benjamin 144,000.

When Moses is slain, when the "Two Witnesses", "Moses and Elias" are slain .......... then and at that time, Jesus said he would divorce the old covenant in order to bring in "New Jerusalem" with Moses in Matthew 19:8. After the "3 Days of Darkness", Moses will be referred to as "Apollyon and Abaddon" (Rev. 9:11), where he was referred to as "Moses and Elias" previously. (God does the killing of Moses, not Satan, the Devil does it for the pleasure of its suicide).

 

[northwye]

Isaiah 30:20: " And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:"

Isaiah 30:21: " And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

Isaiah 30: 20 is describing a tribulation time - "the bread of adversity" - when the society, culture and basic morality have fallen - but while this tribulation is going on the teachers are not removed into a corner, but are seen, and Isaiah 30: 21 says those who are able to hear the teachers find the way and walk in it, even in the midst of adversity, affliction and false doctrines all around them.

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood....And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Though stated in a subtle way, Revelation 12: 15, 17 says there is a spiritual conflict going on here between the minions of the serpent-dragon and the woman with her seed, the remnant. Who is this woman? The best candidate for her is in Galatians 4: 26, "...Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

The serpent-dragon acts through his minions the false prophets in casting out of his mouth a flood of lies as he goes to make war against the remnant.

Here is another verse from Isaiah which fits in to the sealing and anointing of the remnant, or the 144,000: Isaiah 10:27: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. "

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.

 

[RevTestament]

A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

You bring up a good point here, but then don't seem to talk about it, but instead go on to talk about Rev 14. But let's go back to Rev 7:3 which says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

 

[northwye]

I am not sure to what extent the Mormons follow a literalist interpretation of Scripture, as do the dispensationalists. A "letter" type of Bible interpretation goes along with the literalist mind set.

Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Book_of_Mormon

They say that "The understanding of Joseph Smith, and,
traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon
indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of
the House of Israel"

The Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites. They too would cling to the literalist belief that Israel in scripture cannot refer
to anyone other than the physical descendants from Abraham. Therefore, the 144,000 in Revelation 7 must be, for them also, literal, physical Jews of the flesh.

The 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 4, "...and there were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.

But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.

In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.

 

[RevTestament]

I am not sure to what extent the Mormons follow a literalist interpretation of Scripture, as do the dispensationalists. A "letter" type of Bible interpretation goes along with the literalist mind set.

Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.

LDS Christians understand the letter of the law being the letter of the Torah which we do not follow. Instead we do follow the spirit of the law. That is what Jesus came to teach, and why Jesus stressed that the Father is a Spirit like us - therefore we can relate to Him on a spiritual level. He doesn't care for rote animal sacrifice at all. Those things were meant to teach a repentant heart.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Book_of_Mormon

They say that "The understanding of Joseph Smith, and,
traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon
indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of
the House of Israel"

The Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites. They too would cling to the literalist belief that Israel in scripture cannot refer
to anyone other than the physical descendants from Abraham. Therefore, the 144,000 in Revelation 7 must be, for them also, literal, physical Jews of the flesh.

I have to interject here as it appears you don't really understand the LDS viewpoint. LDS Christians do not claim to be descendants of the Lamanites. We believe there are American Indians who are descendants of Manasseh, Joseph's son, and were called Lamanites after Laman, one of the early settlers. We also believe Paul that the Gentiles can be grafted into the house of Israel. see Jacob 5.
However, I also believe that Ephraim is mixed into the nations of the Gentiles, and that there are true descendants of Ephraim among the "Gentiles" a term largely used to refer to the descendants of the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. " 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."

The 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 4, "...and there were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.

But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.

In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.

While I agree that even the wild branches can be grafted into the house of Israel, that doesn't mean that the 144,000 refer to all the followers, and I would have to disagree. I also agree that Revelation uses highly symbolic and metaphorical language. If you are inferring that all the followers are saved to a literal one big "saved room" of the Father, I have to disagree with that too. Jesus said in my Father's house are many rooms, I go to prepare a place for you.
Matt 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The notion that everyone receives the same reward as a "saved" soul is false. Jesus gave several parables about this. He also said things like:

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of[by] my Father.

We are not just haphazard creations. The Father knew us before we were born and formed in the belly. Jer 1:4-5. That is because our spirits were not created with our bodies out of dust, but the life was blown into our created bodies by God, and can return to God when our bodies die. Eccl 12:7.

So the question I posed remains up for discussion:
let's go back to Rev 7:3 which says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

 

[northwye]

Matthew 24: 21-22, 29-30 says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.........29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The darkening of the sun and moon, stars falling and the heavens shaken sounds like Revelation 8: 7-13. But Matthew 24: 29 says these changes in the heavens, meaning the sun, moon and stars, are to occur after the tribulation. What then is the tribulation?

There is a conflict described in metaphoric language in Revelation 12: 3-6, 14-17 in which the dragon opposes the women and she goes into the wilderness. Again in verse 14 the woman is said to go into the wilderness, and in verses 15 to 17 the dragon-serpent casts a flood out of his mouth, after the woman and goes to make war with the woman's seed, the remnant, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26

Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict. Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.

Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many. And again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.

The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.

Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and ti purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.

Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.

The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed before the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.

 

[nonanomanon]

Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8G9Wsnb6s

One of the Ancient Books were recently resurrected, we can't be sure if that is true or not, so we will come back to this issue, but first:

Mark of the Beast under Reuben
DANIEL 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
REVELATION 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from God.

Mark of the Beast under Nepthalim
DANIEL 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
REVELATION 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from the Holy Spirit.

Mark of the Beast under Simeon
DANIEL 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
REVELATION 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from the Sons of God. (Simeon can be a substitute for Levi, because the Tribe of Levites had the title of "Head of the Priesthood", we cannot attribute as a division of Heavenly Salvation ......... saying Simeon is almost the same as saying Levi)

Mark of the Beast under Benjamin
DANIEL 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
REVELATION 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

This is a picture of the Souls given salvation under the God Head, judged from Christ as the Messiah. (Zabulon is another name for the Curse of Creation, Joseph is another name for the Blessing of Creation .............. Benjamin on the other hand is another name for the Judgment Program. The Tribe of Benjamin is the tribe manifested as the Tribe associated with Heavenly Salvation).

1. List of attempts at resurrecting ancient books. Article Link.
2. Attempt of resurrecting the book of 144,000. Article Link.

God does not view time the same way, it is not linear. Jesus is still suffering at the Crucifixion, Moses is still delivering the Hebrews out of Egypt, David is still doing battle with Goliath, and Lazarus is still rising out of his tomb. Heavenly Salvation is finished when Benjamin is removed at the 3 Days of Darkness, yes. But the Gospel cannot be completed until all 70 Angels of Daniel 9 are slain. That can only happen when Christ comes down form the Cross after the 150 days of Star Wormwood.

(God the Concealed Fox Twins, the Holy Spirit the revealed Fox Shadow, the Sons of Man the Dogs, and Christ the Stork) (The International Space Station, and the International Space Observatories, have collectively chosen not to disclose pertinent information about the few days the Antichrist has left before the final sequence begins, they have willingly chosen to do this. We can only estimate there is less then 30 days now remaining until more then 95% of human life on earth is eliminated)

 

[RevTestament]

The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26

Thanks for your input. Let me say tho how I see things. I don't believe the woman in Rev 12 is Jerusalem. The woman represents the church which is forced into the wilderness during a 1260 yr apostasy. She was pained to be delivered of the "man-child" because of the persecutions the early church suffered.

Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict.

This has already been fulfilled and represents the followers who were killed in crusades and by being burnt at the stake in their attempts to worship God in truth.

Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.

I believe this pertains to a person of power in the area of the middle east who may not have come on the scene yet. To be frank I don't know who it is - perhaps a Muslim claiming to be the Mahdi or something like that.

Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many.

I read that last scripture as many will claim to be "christ" or our Savior, etc. An example would be someone like David Koresh, as you post in this next verse here:

And again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.

The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.

OK

Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.

Here we see that this does not pertain to the resurrection of Christ, but the next resurrection.
Seems to be parallel to the fall of Adam:
Gen 3: 22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.

Being that Dan 11:33 has already been fulfilled, I disagree. Dan 8:23 has yet to happen.

The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed before the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.

I have to disagree if you are talking about the 144,000 of Rev 7, since they were sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal. We are now in the 7th thousand years or the 7th seal. So the 144,000 do not live in the time of the great tribulation in the 7th seal. Which kind of brings me to another point. The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 in the 7th seal cannot be of the 144,000 who are sealed unto God by the end of the 6th seal in Rev 7...

 

[way 2 go]

Those records were destroyed in 70 AD.

So if this wasn't fulfilled then, any one of us ole white boys could fall in amongst them 144,000.

God has not lost track of anything
he knows which Jew is in which tribe

Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

 

[nonanomanon]

God has not lost track of anything
he knows which Jew is in which tribe

Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

We will need to establish an alias of Judah first, secondarily we need to understand how this is connected to the 144,000

NUMBERS 32:37 And the children of Reuben built Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Kirjathaim,

Elealeh is Aaron, Kirjathaim is Judah

NUMBERS 26:9 And the sons of Eliab; Nemuel, and Dathan, and Abiram. This [is that] Dathan and Abiram, [which were] famous in the congregation, who strove against Moses and against Aaron in the company of Korah, when they strove against the LORD:
NUMBERS 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.
JOSHUA 21:4 And the lot came out for the families of the Kohathites: and the children of Aaron the priest, [which were] of the Levites, had by lot out of the tribe of Judah, and out of the tribe of Simeon, and out of the tribe of Benjamin, thirteen cities.
II CHRONICLES 29:20 Then Hezekiah the king rose early, and gathered the rulers of the city, and went up to the house of the LORD.
II CHRONICLES 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer [them] on the altar of the LORD.

When Aaron betrayed Moses, God removed Aaron from the Levites, in that sense Aaron was killed (Moses is betrayed by Aaron during the 40 Days of Repentance). God also declares that through a "Sacrifice by Fire", Aaron was redeemed of Korah (Num 26:9-10) .................. God exclaims a second time that Aaron was redeemed of the Kohathites ................ Finally God tells us that Aaron was redeemed of Judah with Moses, from a "Sacrifice by Fire", and they were really the Kohathites ... because remember what happened ... Hezekiah condemns Aaron to death for its Assyrian Sin by 185,000 ... even though God allowed Moses to pardon Aaron through a "Sacrifice by Fire" previously. But remember what happens at the end of time, God kills a portion of Aaron and a portion of Dan, when "Every Eye Shall See", the coming of the lord for a few hours. At the same time, the "Marriages by Fire, and Aaron's Repentance by Fire" takes place .................... Korah and the Kohathites are Judah

JEREMIAH 48:41 Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised, and the mighty men's hearts in Moab at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
JEREMIAH 48:45 They that fled stood under the shadow of Heshbon because of the force: but a fire shall come forth out of Heshbon, and a flame from the midst of Sihon, and shall devour the corner of Moab, and the crown of the head of the tumultuous ones.

Matt 2:17-19 says in short: Aaron was intended to keep Jerusalem for the Lord (Aaron as the Suckling Child/Weeping Child), because the same Angel that condemned Aaron to death for 185,000 ... appears to announce the act of establishing Jerusalem as Aaron's Repentance. What happens unfortunately as the Gospel describes is the fact that, a portion of Aaron established Italy instead which is revealed as a genetic line associated with a clergy, this portion under Hezekiah must die, so the portion of Aaron under Moses can be judged by a "Sacrifice of Fire". ....................... When Judah/Kerioth gave Jesus Christ the Crown, it was a form of rebuke for Aaron, this announcing the condemnation of Matt 2:17-19 ...... in which Jesus Christ gave Judah the title of "Head of the Tribes" or reign over the nations, and removed this title from Aaron, while Aaron maintained the title of "Head of the Priesthood", to reign over the church (and finish its war with god) ........... Kerioth is another name for Judah, now we can approach how this is connected to the 144,000 of Revelations:

Reuben not Listed with Judah (Reuben is unlike the other 4 Beasts of Daniel, in that context, we'll come back to this)
I CHRONICLES 6:63 Unto the sons of Merari [were given] by lot, throughout their families, out of the tribe of Reuben, and out of the tribe of Gad, and out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve cities.

Simeon and Benjamin are listed with Judah
I CHRONICLES 6:65 And they gave by lot out of the tribe of the children of Judah, and out of the tribe of the children of Simeon, and out of the tribe of the children of Benjamin, these cities, which are called by [their] names.

Naphtali listed with Judah (Nepthalim is given in Rev. 7, because Naphtali is used as Separatist Inheritor*)
I CHRONICLES 6:76 And out of the tribe of Naphtali; Kedesh in Galilee with her suburbs, and Hammon with her suburbs, and Kirjathaim with her suburbs.

Kirjathaim is another name for Judah. Now our attention will go back to Reuben not being listed with Judah, but Reuben is listed with Judah in Revelation 7. God gave Judah the title of "Head of the Tribes", and it has done a piss poor job of bringing the gospel to the nations as a whole. Such a piss poor job, that God designed language to cut down Judah's size to a single nation based on the Jewish population. The USA has also done a very poor job of doing much of anything, other than warmongering. Therefore God, wants Judah excluded from the 144,000 ....... so the "Heart of Judah" can be judged by the space of 153 days or 150 days under the authority of the Antichrist. Moses was given authority over Korah/Judah when they were put to death by fire in the Old Testament, so this is simply revisited.

(The Nuclear Exchange in Europe and India will ultimately mean nothing because the law will not be satisfied, no one has prepared since this is all a big joke ............ the suffering and death they will cause, in failing to confirm the covenant, should turn into additional blessings from the holy spirit ............ that is how we must view the ultimate end of what happens, as serving our immediate goals ................ to these ends we must remain faithful, so that they remain blind until such and such a time, as the time these things are needed done ....... as I've stated the antichrist is simply a pinata, beat him to death)

 

[northwye]

Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The Falser Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.

Recently a guy wrote an attack upon Dean Gotcher, a Christian teacher disliked in the churches because of his messages, saying of Gotcher that "Gotcher is implementing the dialectic when he exploits the polarization
of church and society into left vs. right wing for his so-called ministry."

He is saying that while Gotcher exposes the use of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic in helping to bring about the present day apostasy of the church, Gotcher makes use of that same dialectic in polarizing church and society into left versus right wing.

The guy is wrong in describing the two positions as left wing versus right wing as far as the church is concerned. Politically, the dispensationalists, for example, are more conservative than are many who are not dispensationalists.

In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.

The false prophets who bring in damnable heresies are also in II Peter 2: 1-3, where they speak evil of the truth, and make merchandise of you. In II Timothy 3: 1, 7-8 in last days of perilous times people are described as being lovers of their own selves, "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"..."these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." The False Prophets and their followers speak evil of the truth, while claiming to have the truth themselves.

The falling away in the end times (apostasy, from the Greek apostasia) of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 happens when the transgressors of Daniel 8: 23 are come to the full, are at their highest point of compromising the teachings of Christ. Paul writes about the same thing in I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 13, and II Timothy 4: 3-4. Luke 13: 18-21 says the kingdom of God will be leavened until whole is leavened. The meaning of leaven in scripture is made clear in Matthew 16: 6, 12, in I Corinthians 5: 6-8 and in Galatians 5: 11.

The falling away from sound doctrine in the end time in the church because of the work of the many false prophets sets up that dialectic or two part opposition between the False Prophets and their followers versus the remnant of Israel.

 

[RevTestament]

Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full.

OK, I think we talked about that, but this thread is really about 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14.... I would like to stay on the subject.

If you are responding to nonanomanon, I request that he go elsewhere unless he is going to discuss the topic in a relevant way.
Thanks in advance.

 

[nonanomanon]

Bible prophecy says there is an opposition between a remnant faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 14: 1-5) and the many False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11, called the transgressors in Daniel 8: 23. And Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The Falser Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.
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In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.

Lets rephrase the question, How can we invalidate the 144,000 as a description of salvation, and How can we prove this figure of 144,000 is really another description of Satan?

We'll have to rely on the language the gospel uses to invalidate the 144,000.

JUDGES 20:10 And we will take ten men of an hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and an hundred of a thousand, and a thousand out of ten thousand, to fetch victual for the people, that they may do, when they come to Gibeah of Benjamin, according to all the folly that they have wrought in Israel.

Parable of Matthew 13

1. Seed by the Way Side = 10 Men of 100 (Matt 13:19)
2. Seed in Stony Places = 100 Men of 1000 (Matt 13:20)
3. Seed among Thorns = 1000 Men of 10,000 (Matt 13:22)
4. Seed into Good Ground = 10,000 Men of 100,000 (Matt 13:23)

100,000 of Benjamin (Judges 20:10) + 1st Day of 22,000 (Judges 20:21-22) + 2nd Day of 18,000 (Judges 20:24-25) + 3rd Day of "About 30 Men" (Judges 20:30-31) = 140,030 and not 144,000 because Satan is included at the "3 Days of Darkness", God invalidated 144,000 as a figure that deals with Heavenly Salvation.

(The Literal figure of Heavenly Salvation is 6000 Souls, no more, no less, that includes Moses regardless of the fact that the Gospel's Language describes Moses as a fallen angel, and equal to Melchisedec which is Christ .... back to topic .... Judas throws "About 30 Shekels" into the Church, because this was a picture of God including Satan into the figure of 144,000 ..... matching the description of Judges 20 in how the 144,000 of Benjamin is broken, now that we've invalidated 144,000 as a Literal figure, lets continue

OK, I think we talked about that, but this thread is really about 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14.... I would like to stay on the subject.

144,000 of Revelation 7 is a reference to the "Body of Benjamin" those receiving Heavenly Salvation, therefore God separates Satan:

1. 144,000 of Rev. 7:3-4 cannot receive "Star Wormwood", which must consume the Universe
2. Satan is describe as "Those that are Clothed in White" or Star Wormwood.

144,000 of Revelation 14 is a reference to the "Body of Christ", because Satan is included in the description:

1. 144,000 of Revelation 14:3 is a reference to Satan because, "Star Wormwood" which redeems the Earth is referenced
2. Satan is blessed by Christ/Lamb who is not in Heaven, but he is now sitting in Zion (Rev. 14:1). Zion is the last Separatist Inheritance* which is of Judah, that God must judge in order to complete the "Body of Christ", and finish rising up satan along with the saints.

(Judah is stated in Revelation 5:5 as being Judged by the 153 Days described in Revelation. If this is absolutely true, then Judah is set aside from the 144,000 ............. that is what we wanted to achieve based on a correspondance in the Gospel description, and evidence that God isolated Judah with "Fire" before Moses in the past, because Moses comes again as the Antichrist to judge Judah. ................. Rev. 14:1 says Zion is judged also indicating only a portion of Judah remains on earth)

 

[nonanomanon]

(Commentary Enclosed in Parenthesis)

EXODUS 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
JUDGES 20:10 And we will take ten men of an hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and an hundred of a thousand, and a thousand out of ten thousand, to fetch victual for the people, that they may do, when they come to Gibeah of Benjamin, according to all the folly that they have wrought in Israel.

Moses Saved 600,000 out of his body, but what is God's Salvation Program?

Is it 60,000 of 600,000 ... no its not
Is it 6,000 of 60,000 ... no its not
Is it 600 of 6000 ... no its not
Is it 60 of 600 ... no its not

If it is none of these figures are true, then what is the correct figure?

The Genealogy of Luke 3 lists 70 people, they were not created as perfect beings .......... then the Genealogy of Matthew includes Mary, and because Mary was a Hebrew, the Genealogy was terminated. Now the gospel teaches us how many souls will obtain heavenly salvation at the end of the gospel program, so how many?

Out of the 70 people listed in Luke 3:

1. God is a perfect being
2. Jesus is a perfect being
3. Enoch walked with God so he is also a perfect being, the Holy Spirit is a perfect being
4. Moses was created as a perfect being, he cannot be counted, Moses is not listed but he is revealed as Joseph

That leaves approximately 66 souls that were not created as perfect beings in the Genealogy of Luke 3, matching the 66 Books of the Gospel ... ... ... ... One perspective is the 600,000 Moses saved is invalidated because he is a fallen angel, and they can't save souls, at least not until he is allowed to reign as a Fallen Angel ... ... ... ... that is one perspective, which makes Genetic Dan 1000% more of a public threat, and our current pattern will not be sufficient to contain it, meaning it will have to go away before Aaron does, but we don't want that to happen, and nobody believes this position, after all there is no Antichrist with the power to end the Covenant Jesus established ... ... ... ... another position is that since God created Moses as a perfect being, he can only be an artificial fallen angel, because God has no need to create fallen angels, but he made an exception with Moses ... ... ... ... our dialogue will simply have to end on this paradox, since there is less then 30 days left to the termination of more then 95% of human life on earth ... ... ... ... and everything that we've established, we intend to see satisfied, very soon, in a less then 30 days you will have your chance to balance the tables, that will happen soon.

(Jesus Christ was the Last Son of God, and the rest were phonies .... until the Antichrist, if you follow the Genealogy of Luke 3, you can understand how hopeless and futile it has been these 12,000 days ... of ending your lives by killing the Antichrist ... and how hopeless it is for Aaron to attempt to avoid its fate along with an infinite number of other individuals ... I did not intend to reveal this truth or to make this statement, so I will have to do something to take your attention away ... fortunately I've already started to take a look at something) (I don't care, I don't care, I don't care ... sure if there was an Antichrist he would of made that statement ... but it would be also correct to say that tremendous power has been used to stop humanity from terminating itself through the mechanism of suicide, a desire that authenticates what will happen soon, because it is necessary to protect your potential, and the course that is set will not change or be altered ............ ofcourse this is only possible if 100% if everything the Antichrist has claimed is true is true, and there is "Zero Fallibility" to these claims, it is only because it is already much to late, that is why these simple statements are readily put forth ..... who knows and who cares, that is the trend in society, but not for us keeping watch)

 

[RevTestament]

Lets rephrase the question, How can we invalidate the 144,000 as a description of salvation, and How can we prove this figure of 144,000 is really another description of Satan?

We'll have to rely on the language the gospel uses to invalidate the 144,000.

I have an idea - let's not invalidate them. This is my thread, and you are trolling it, and trying to change the subject. If you post nonsense here again, I will report it.