ECT ST. AUGUSTINE ON THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST
- Thread starter Cruciform
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Cruciform
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And this relates to the OP how, exactly...?
Sonnet
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If you accept that there are genuine Christians outside of Catholicism then isn't your point rather academic?
I've read St. Augustine's works, and though he was a Catholic priest back in the 4th century, he certainly wouldn't have agreed with the fanatics of the Church calling themselves infallible, the 'only true Church', or, at that, even the best Christians.
The Roman Church became after Augustine a mass of tyrannical fanatics. You can't wash away a permanent stain with honeyed words, the RCC failed to 'deliver the kingdom', murdered people with a cross, scapegoated on it's own servants, and matched every single description of the Antichrist in Revelation.
So put a sock in it- Augustine was a predestinarian, something which Catholics abandoned and which Protestants restored.
Only to be challenged by idiots, but that's neither here nor there- the point is that the RCC is nothing more than a collection of whatever it can take to empower it's position.
The Roman Church became after Augustine a mass of tyrannical fanatics. You can't wash away a permanent stain with honeyed words, the RCC failed to 'deliver the kingdom', murdered people with a cross, scapegoated on it's own servants, and matched every single description of the Antichrist in Revelation.
So put a sock in it- Augustine was a predestinarian, something which Catholics abandoned and which Protestants restored.
Only to be challenged by idiots, but that's neither here nor there- the point is that the RCC is nothing more than a collection of whatever it can take to empower it's position.
Sonnet
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Not sure there is anything worse than a denial of Christ's death for all without exception - an assault on the very Gospel itself...a fifth column catastrophe, no less.
If we are to judge by human failures, then no denomination would survive.
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or just show us the first succession...it must be recorded.
Cruciform
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Hardly, since all believers are called to join themselves to Christ's one historic Church, which is his Body, and in which the fullness of the Christian faith resides.
Sonnet
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Are there true believers outside Catholicism? I believe we've had this chat before.
Sonnet
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Which scripture in particular?
Cruciform
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:darwinsm:... You've been laughably deluded by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect(s). It is a simple and straightforward documented fact that St. Augustine was fully Catholic in every sense of the term, a bishop and scholar who believed, taught, and passionately defended the following distinctively Catholic doctrines, among others:
- baptismal regeneration
- Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist
- the divine authority of Tradition, equal w/ Scripture as Divine Revelation (God's word)*
- infant baptism
- the primacy and authority of the papacy
- the role of good works in salvation**
- papal and apostolic succession
- the 73-book biblical canon
- the intermediate state of purgatory
- the invocation of the intercession of past Saints (Communion of Saints)
- the religious use of sacred images and objects in worship and devotion
- verbal confession of sins to a priest for absolution
- the Mass as a genuine sacrifice
__________
*Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola scriptura.
** Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola fide.
Cruciform
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Yes, there are those who truly believe in Jesus Christ and have been properly baptized. In this way, they have been sacramentally connected to the Catholic Church, and so may in the end be saved.
Sonnet
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Good works are not a consideration in attaining righteousness - scripture is explicit on this. The good works follow.
Cruciform
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Every biblical text that refers to "the church" or "Christ's body," etc. is speaking about one---and only one (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3:15)---historic Church, that is, that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself himself in 33 A.D., which still exists today, and which has been commonly known since the end of the 1st century as "the Catholic Church." This is a historically documented fact.
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Sonnet
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Since you accept non-Catholic believers exist then you refute your own claims about your church.
Sonnet
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Nothing here that puts the Catholic Church in authority. The church would be the body of genuine believers.
Cruciform
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Yes, no doubt your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect has told you this. However, the biblical reality is that, while Paul specifically condemns the "works of the law" (i.e., the Mosaic Law) with respect to salvation, he also insists on the necessary role of "good works" (acts of mercy and obedience) in salvation (Rom. 2:6-11; 1 Cor. 9:23-27; 15:10; Gal. 5:6-7; Phil. 2:12-13; Heb. 5:9). Note, however, that I'm talking about ultimate salvation, not initial justification.
Cruciform
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How exactly do you imagine this to be the case?