ECT What does authority in the church look like?

[Jacob]

I believe this is a great, important, and timely question for another thread in this forum. The first thoughts basis for background on this question are as follows, which I borrow from another thread.

To answer the question in the title

ECT: NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN'S ONLY AUTHORITY

can we ask:

Is the Bible the Christian's only authority?

Is the Bible an authority (for the Christian)?

Is the Bible authoritative?

The scriptures as an authority for the Christian.

OR

The scriptures are the authority for the Christian.

The scriptures are an authority for the Christian.

Is there any other authority?

Obviously in terms of authority we have God and Jesus Christ His Son.

And we are to be subject to the governing authorities.

It is true that I am not a Catholic. But as a Bible believer and a Christian I find this question to be important.

Apparently it is important, I do believe, that true power is perfected in weakness, which is contrary to what many might believe. Is this a statement that reflects true personal or spiritual transformation and a humility for those who have experienced God's saving grace (in that we are not saved by works we have nothing to boast about (Romans 11:6 or other verse in Romans, Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB, Titus 3:5))?

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

 

[Jacob]

What is the role of the Holy Spirit in this, in terms of authority? There is God's authority in our life, and then also how we present ourselves to each other. This means if a person has been transformed by the Spirit of God then they don't seek authority out, they rather allow God to use them they way He has designed them to be used.

If a person does not know what to do in any circumstance, they can ask of God and He will direct them. Saturate yourself in the scriptures, the word of God, if you are able. Some do this because of their gifting, and others that they would know the truth and not follow anything apart from the one true and living God, the God of the Bible.

In love, Jesus went to His death, as did those who followed Him. If we take the Bible as a whole we will see that our activity is not to challenge others in anger or take vengeance for wrong, harm, or offense (just perceived or actual or not even). God has given us an understanding of love for others and respect for authority. May He use you as you are fully submitted to Him!

 

[PureX]

What do you mean by "authority"?

Are you referring to some earthly manifestation or representation of God that we should believe in, trust absolutely, and obey as if it were "of God"?

If so, isn't what you're describing basically an 'idol'?

Wiki says that; "An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with admiration, adoration, or devotion." What that means is that an idol is any person or thing that we place between ourselves and God, and treat as an actual/physical manifestation of God.

If that definitions correct, then I would submit that a great many Christians have made idols of their Bibles, of their various church leaders and doctrines, and of their own religious/political/social ideologies. Because clearly they believe in and trust these Earthly phenomena to be the actual manifestation of God's mind, heart, and will.

And yet in the case of most Christians, I doubt they could believe in God at all without these "authoritative idols" to tell them and help to show them how. I'm not sure Christianity would even exist as an ideal, without them.

So I, personally, see these "authoritative idols" as spiritual and intellectual tools, to be used when needed, but set aside if they become mistaken for the reality of God. The reality of God in this world is love. Not the Bible, not the church, and not any religious ideology. To the extent that these things enable us to better love one another, they are useful. But when they impede our ability to love one another, they have become false (and therefor harmful) idols. And should be rejected as such.

The ultimate Earthy "authority" of God is the divine spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity that heals and saves us from ourselves. To the extent that we serve that "authority", we are serving God's mind and will. And anything we allow to deter us from that service is a false idol that we should immediately reject.

 

[Cross Reference]

What do you mean by "authority"?

Are you referring to some earthly manifestation or representation of God that we should believe in, trust absolutely, and obey as if it were "of God"?

If so, isn't what you're describing basically an 'idol'?

Wiki says that; "An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with admiration, adoration, or devotion." What that means is that an idol is any person or thing that we place between ourselves and God, and treat as an actual/physical manifestation of God.

If that definitions correct, then I would submit that a great many Christians have made idols of their Bibles, of their various church leaders and doctrines, and of their own religious/political/social ideologies. Because clearly they believe in and trust these Earthly phenomena to be the actual manifestation of God's mind, heart, and will.

And yet in the case of most Christians, I doubt they could believe in God at all without these "authoritative idols" to tell them and help to show them how. I'm not sure Christianity would even exist as an ideal, without them.

So I, personally, see these "authoritative idols" as spiritual and intellectual tools, to be used when needed, but set aside if they become mistaken for the reality of God. The reality of God in this world is love. Not the Bible, not the church, and not any religious ideology. To the extent that these things enable us to better love one another, they are useful. But when they impede our ability to love one another, they have become false (and therefor harmful) idols. And should be rejected as such.

The ultimate Earthy "authority" of God is the divine spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity that heals and saves us from ourselves. To the extent that we serve that "authority", we are serving God's mind and will. And anything we allow to deter us from that service is a false idol that we should immediately reject.

How 'bout we say the scriptures are not the "Word" of God but the written word of Himself that is purposed for us to 'hear' and learn "The Word", Who is God?

 

[PureX]

How 'bout we say the scriptures are not the "Word" of God but the written word of Himself that is purposed for us to 'hear' and learn "The Word", Who is God?

Because that would be a bunch of confusing gibberish intended to obscure our false idolization of the Bible?

Any way we do it, to pretend in our minds that God is speaking to us through the Bible is to make a false idol of it. It's treating a man-made object as if it were a manifestation of God, Himself. And there is no need or logical reason to do such a thing. If we need an "authority" to guide us, spiritually, let that it be our love for one another, expressed through forgiveness, and generosity, and kindness, and mercy to all.

The Bible is just a tool. It can be useful, but when we start confusing it with God it can become very harmful, and then it's time to put it away.

 

[Jacob]

The Bible is not to be confused with God, but it does tell us about who God is including that God is love and that God is just, etc....

We can learn (the truth; how to live) from reading the Bible, as it says. And the Bible should never be an idol. All of our worship and service should be unto God and His Son Jesus Christ.

In the church first we are to love one another. This is how we obey those who are in authority over us. My point here as been that love demonstrated is the best example of authority in the church or otherwise.

 

[PureX]

The Bible is not to be confused with God, but it does tell us about who God is including that God is love and that God is just, etc….

I don't really see any difference, there. What's the difference between saying "God said it" or saying "God made Mr. X write it down"? Directly or indirectly, we're still treating the text as if it were a manifestation of God. And that's the definition of idolization.

We can learn (the truth; how to live) from reading the Bible, as it says.

We can learn that from lots of different sources. We don't have to read the Bible and know the story of the life and death of Jesus to discover the healing power of God's love and forgiveness, and give ourselves over to it.

And the Bible should never be an idol. All of our worship and service should be unto God and His Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus was the servant of humanity (Son of Man) as the exemplification of Christ (God's spirit in human form). And so if we are Christians, that's the example we should be following. God doesn't want or need our worship. But the spirit of Christ within us is asking us to love and serve each other, as Jesus loved and served us.

In the church first we are to love one another. This is how we obey those who are in authority over us.

Love is not about obedience. Love is forgiveness, love is kindness, love is generosity. And no one is in authority over us, as we are all created free and equal.

My point here has been that love demonstrated is the best example of authority in the church or otherwise.

I completely agree. But I think this concept gets very easily lost amongst religious Christians because they confuse their religion with God (and Christ), and they confuse having faith in God's love with obedience to their religion. I also think they are encouraged in this confusion constantly by religious dogmas and religious "leaders" who want to stand between everyone else and God, for their own benefit.

 

[Jacob]

I don't really see any difference, there. What's the difference between saying "God said it" or saying "God made Mr. X write it down"? Directly or indirectly, we're still treating the text as if it were a manifestation of God. And that's idolization.

The Bible has its proper place in the life of the Christian. We cannot say otherwise.

We can learn that from lots of different sources. We don't have to read the Bible and know the story of the life and death of Jesus to discover the healing power of God's love and forgiveness, and give ourselves over to it.

There is no salvation apart from Jesus. Read what Acts 4:12 says about this.

Jesus was the servant of humanity (Son of Man) as the exemplification of Christ (God's spirit in human form). And so if we are Christians, that's the example we should be following. God doesn't want or need our worship. But the spirit of Christ within us is asking us to love and serve each other.

God actually does want us to worship Him, and to worship no other god (no other gods, no gods falsely called god).

Love is not obedience. Love is forgiving, love is kind, love is generous. No one is in authority over us. We are all free.

Love is what we have been commanded to do, so that means it is obedience. God is our authority, and His Son Jesus Christ. Without God as our authority, the Bible has no authority.

I completely agree. But I think this concept gets very easily lost amongst religious Christians because they confuse their religion with God and Christ, and they confuse love with obedience. I also think they are encouraged in this confusion constantly by religious dogmas and religious "leaders" who want to stand between other people and God, for their own benefit.

Religious obedience or works doesn't make sense on the one hand, but a practice or religion out of love in obedience to God does make sense. For this we have James 1 among other verses. We may have started with Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[PureX]

The Bible has its proper place in the life of the Christian. We cannot say otherwise.

It's just a tool, to be used when it's useful, and to be set aside when it not.

There is no salvation apart from Jesus. Read what Acts 4:12 says about this.

You are idolizing the words, and missing their meaning.

Jesus is the human manifestation of God's spirit. Thus Jesus is 'the Christ'. Through this human exemplification of God's loving and forgiving spirit (Christ), we can come to know the healing and saving power of God's love as it acts within us, and through us, to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others, in turn. Without this realization, and without our choosing to live it, we are lost.

This is what's meant by there being "no salvation apart from Jesus". You're taking the words too literally, and interpreting them religiously, and thereby missing the fulness of their meaning.

God actually does want us to worship Him, and to worship no other god (no other gods, no gods falsely called god).

That's just the egotism of self-serving religiosity talking. Sadly, the history of religious Christianity is full of that sort of ideological power-mongering.

Love is what we have been commanded to do, …

That doesn't even make any sense. You can't "command" someone to love you. All you'd get from them would be a pretense of love until they could get away from you.

God is our authority, and His Son Jesus Christ. Without God as our authority, the Bible has no authority.

See, you are completely conflating these two as if they are one and the same (God and the Bible). That's idolatry.

Religious obedience or works doesn't make sense on the one hand, but a practice or religion out of love in obedience to God does make sense. For this we have James 1 among other verses. We may have started with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Religious Christians are going to remain lost and confused so long as they remain unwilling to let go of the whole "obedience" thing.

Christ is about the healing and renewing power of love and forgiveness, not the reward of heavenly salvation through obedience. It's a subtle but very important difference, and one that most religious Christians are oblivious to.

 

[Jacob]

It's just a tool, to be used when it's useful, and to be set aside when it not.
You are idolizing the words, and missing their meaning.

Jesus is the human manifestation of God's spirit. Thus Jesus is 'the Christ'. Through this human exemplification of God's loving and forgiving spirit (Christ), we can come to know the healing and saving power of God's love as it acts within us, and through us, to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others, in turn. Without this realization, and without our choosing to live it, we are lost.

This is what's meant by there being "no salvation apart from Jesus". You're taking the words too literally, and interpreting them religiously, and thereby missing the fulness of their meaning.
That's just the egotism of self-serving religiosity talking. Sadly, the history of religious Christianity is full of that sort of ideological power-mongering.
That doesn't even make any sense. You can't "command" someone to love you. All you'd get from them would be a pretense of love until they could get away from you.
See, you are completely conflating these two as if they are one and the same (God and the Bible). That's idolatry.
Religious Christians are going to remain lost and confused so long as they remain unwilling to let go of the whole "obedience" thing.

Christ is about the healing and renewing power of love and forgiveness, not the reward of heavenly salvation through obedience. It's a subtle but very important difference, and one that most religious Christians are oblivious to.

God has commanded us to love Him and to love our neighbor, so that is what we ought to do.

Do you remember 2 Timothy 3:16-17? How about the first two commandments of the Ten Commandments or Deuteronomy 6:4?

That salvation is only found in Jesus the Messiah is evident from the scriptures, but you want to say something else and you imply that believing the scriptures for what they say is idolatry.

Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8, 9). If you reject Jesus God's only begotten Son (and the Messiah, God's anointed), you basically have rejected God as well.

Do you remember that it is the kingdom of God and of Christ that a believer is in?

 

[PureX]

God has commanded us to love Him and to love our neighbor, so that is what we ought to do.

I think you're way over-stating the idea of a "command". Some guy asked Jesus for a command, and so Jesus gave him one. Otherwise, he didn't go around spewing "commands". I think organized religion has gotten so caught up in the idea of it's own "authority" that it wants to speak of God and Christ in terms of "commands" and "obedience" and "rewards for obeying Gods (the church's) commands". And sadly, most religious Christians can't see through the haze of religious authoritarianism clearly enough to recognize the truth of Christ, which is all about love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, and is not about laws, or religious dogmas, or obedience.

Do you remember 2 Timothy 3:16-17? How about the first two commandments of the Ten Commandments or Deuteronomy 6:4?

Not being a Jew, the Old Testament and it's religious commands and pronouncements are of no special significance to me.

That salvation is only found in Jesus the Messiah is evident from the scriptures, but you want to say something else and you imply that believing the scriptures for what they say is idolatry.

When you pretend that God wrote them, you are making a false idol of them, yes. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Jacob]

I think you're way over-stating the idea of a "command". Some guy asked Jesus for a command, and so Jesus gave him one. Otherwise, he didn't go around spewing "commands". I think organized religion has gotten so caught up in the idea of it's own "authority" that it wants to speak of God and Christ in terms of "commands" and "obedience" and "rewards for obeying Gods (the church's) commands". And sadly, most religious Christians can't see through the haze of religious authoritarianism clearly enough to recognize the truth of Christ, which is all about love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, and is not about laws, or religious dogmas, of obedience.
Not being a Jew, the Old Testament and it's religious commands and pronouncements are of no special significance to me.
When you pretend that God wrote them, you are making a false idol of them, yes. That's what I'm saying.

Men inspired of (by) God penned what we have today.

As for obedience and your perspective of rewards, what do you believe the Bible is saying here?

Luke 17:5 NKJV - And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith."

Luke 17:6 NKJV - So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Luke 17:7 NKJV - "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'?

Luke 17:8 NKJV - "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'?

Luke 17:9 NKJV - "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.

Luke 17:10 NKJV - "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "

God's authority and His commands for us our found throughout the scriptures. Ultimately the point is that we would obey God, not that we we necessarily do what other people tell us to do (unless it lines up with God's word, the Bible).

 

[PureX]

Men inspired of (by) God penned what we have today.

Inspired, they may have been, but inerrant they were not. When we pretend that God wrote the Bible, we assume the human authors to be something they were not (inerrant). And therein lays the dishonesty of idolatry.

As for obedience and your perspective of rewards, what do you believe the Bible is saying here?

I believe Jesus was speaking about a 'law of love' akin to a 'law of gravity'. That once we recognize it, and live in accord with it, will heal us and save us from our own self-centered insanity and destruction. The salvation Jesus was offering is not only for us as individuals in the here and now, but for humanity collectively and forever.

But religion has turned the latter promise into a reward/threat that it then uses to rule over and control people. And it began doing so right from the start, so that some of this has been written into the religious texts we now call the Bible.

 

[Jacob]

Inspired, they may have been, but inerrant they were not.

God does not error, so being inspired by God they did not error.

When we pretend that God wrote the Bible, we assume the human authors to be something they were not (inerrant). And therein lays the dishonesty of idolatry.

Do you worship the God of the Bible or an idol?

I believe Jesus was speaking about a 'law of love' akin to a 'law of gravity'. That once we recognize it, and live in accord with it, will heal us and save us from our own self-centered insanity and destruction. The salvation Jesus was offering is not only for us as individuals in the here and now, but for humanity collectively and forever.

Love makes sense as being of God. We speak that God is love. We speak about the love of God. We are to love the way God has loved us. But salvation pertains to rescued from sin and disobedience to obedience and eternal life, according to the Bible.

But religion has turned the latter promise into a reward/threat that it then uses to rule over and control people. And it began doing so right from the start, so that some of this has been written into the religious texts we now call the Bible.

That which should be is different from the way you perceive things to be.

I trust the Bible to be God's word. It is my rule for life and how I conduct myself in life.

 

[PureX]

God does not error, so being inspired by God they did not error.

How magical of them!

Do you worship the God of the Bible or an idol?

Did you stop beating your wife, today?

Love makes sense as being of God. We speak that God is love. We speak about the love of God. We are to love the way God has loved us. But salvation pertains to rescued from sin and disobedience to obedience and eternal life, according to the Bible.

That which should be is different from the way you perceive things to be.

I can't presume to know what 'should be', all I can presume is that the truth is what is, and that if God possesses the ability to change it, than 'what is' must be God's will. And the truth of 'what is', is that we humans are lost to our own self-centered insanity without the salvation and healing power of divine love. And that ain't no 'hocus-pocus'. That's the truth of God and the reality of 'what is' all around us.

 

[republicanchick]

The church came before the Bible and "created" the Bible

The church is what has authority, and God has authority over the Church. The problem is that the Church has been divided. There are thousands of different denominations of Christian religions and so there is a lot of confusion

I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church was the first one. But there are a few things "not right" in the Catholic Church... That doesn't mean the Church's teachings are wrong. They are not wrong. But there is a lot of evil going on, which I don't really want to get into it right now, but it all comes down to walking closely with the Lord and going where he wants, whether we want to or not and stuff like that

 

[Jacob]

How magical of them!

No, magic is forbidden.

Did you stop beating your wife, today?

I don't have a wife, but no one should beat their wife.

I can't presume to know what 'should be', all I can presume is that the truth is what is, and that if God possesses the ability to change it, than 'what is' must be God's will. And the truth of 'what is', is that we humans are lost to our own self-centered insanity without the salvation and healing power of divine love. And that ain't no 'hocus-pocus'. That's the truth of God and the reality of 'what is' all around us.

But you think you can have the love of God and deny the Bible at the same time?

 

[Jacob]

The church came before the Bible and "created" the Bible

The church is what has authority, and God has authority over the Church. The problem is that the Church has been divided. There are thousands of different denominations of Christian religions and so there is a lot of confusion

I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church was the first one. But there are a few things "not right" in the Catholic Church... That doesn't mean the Church's teachings are wrong. They are not wrong. But there is a lot of evil going on, which I don't really want to get into it right now, but it all comes down to walking closely with the Lord and going where he wants, whether we want to or not and stuff like that

When I think of the church I think of the body of Christ, not Catholicism or any other denomination.

 

[DAN P]

Hi , and just where does it say the RCC was the first one , with a verse !!

dan p

 

[PhilipJames]

hello Untell,

I believe this is a great, important, and timely question for another thread in this forum. The first thoughts basis for background on this question are as follows, which I borrow from another thread.

ECT: NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN'S ONLY AUTHORITY




It is true that I am not a Catholic. But as a Bible believer and a Christian I find this question to be important.

Apparently it is important, I do believe, that true power is perfected in weakness, which is contrary to what many might believe. Is this a statement that reflects true personal or spiritual transformation and a humility for those who have experienced God's saving grace (in that we are not saved by works we have nothing to boast about (Romans 11:6 or other verse in Romans, Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB, Titus 3:5))?

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

These things are true, and the Spirit that gives us the 'power perfected in weakness' also calls us to bear with one another in love, to build up (and not tear down) the unity of the Body of Christ. It calls us to live for and with our brethren in Christ and through Christ, letting His Love become our love and sharing this love with one another and with the world. (we are the salt of the earth).

Now to your topic question: 'What does authority in the church look like?'

The Church as the Bride of Christ is united with HIM, and as such speaks with HIS authority, thus HE says: those who hear you hear me.... and gives to the Church the authority to 'bind and loose'.

but how is this corporate authority seen? It is vested in the bishops of the Church, whose duty it is to protect, teach, preach and pass on the 'deposit of faith' in union with Christ our head and the members whose souls they have a duty to care for, (Heb 13:17).

Peace!
PJ