Mexicans are Dumb and Will Destroy America?

[Traditio]

This makes no sense. They are criticizing this guy over a dissertation that he wrote at Harvard. If this guy deserves to resign, then so does his dissertation board (3-4 Ph.D.'s who read and approved the dissertation), as well as the administrators who gave him the Ph.D. based on the approval of his dissertation. What, that's retarded? Because dissertations involve a high degree of scholarship? We shouldn't be concerned about popular vs. unpopular opinions when we're doing academic research? We should let the facts be facts and face them as they come? I agree. And the facts are pretty clear to me.

Link

"A Heritage Foundation scholar has resigned after a firestorm erupted over his 2009 dissertation alleging Hispanics do not have 'IQ parity with whites' and that Hispanic immigrants to the United States will have 'low-IQ children and grandchildren'...Richwine’s Harvard University dissertation, written before his employment at Heritage, asserted that an influx of 'low-IQ' immigrants coming to the country would result in 'a lack of socioeconomic assimilation among low-IQ immigrant groups, more underclass behavior, less social trust, and an increase in the proportion of unskilled workers in the American labor market.' 'No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against,' Richwine wrote."

 

[The Berean]

Yay scientific racism is alive and well. :noid:

 

[bybee]

This makes no sense. They are criticizing this guy over a dissertation that he wrote at Harvard. If this guy deserves to resign, then so does his dissertation board (3-4 Ph.D.'s who read and approved the dissertation), as well as the administrators who gave him the Ph.D. based on the approval of his dissertation. What, that's retarded? Because dissertations involve a high degree of scholarship? We shouldn't be considered about popular vs. unpopular opinions when we're doing academic research? We should let the facts be facts and face them as they come? I agree. And the facts are pretty clear to me.

Link

"A Heritage Foundation scholar has resigned after a firestorm erupted over his 2009 dissertation alleging Hispanics do not have 'IQ parity with whites' and that Hispanic immigrants to the United States will have 'low-IQ children and grandchildren'...Richwine’s Harvard University dissertation, written before his employment at Heritage, asserted that an influx of 'low-IQ' immigrants coming to the country would result in 'a lack of socioeconomic assimilation among low-IQ immigrant groups, more underclass behavior, less social trust, and an increase in the proportion of unskilled workers in the American labor market.' 'No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against,' Richwine wrote."

An anecdotal response is here offered:
My daughter-in-law is a graduate of Baylor University and holds a position of some responsibility at USAA. one of her sisters also holds a B.A. and another sister recently completed her Masters requirements. They are a family of six children all of whom work and contribute to society. Her only brother is a Master Sergeant in the Marine Corps. Her parents are very humble hard working people recently retired. I suspect, had her mother been given the opportunity to be educated at a higher level she would have graduated with honors. The woman is a genius and is self-taught in many areas.
One of my nieces is married to a Mexican from a family of hard working folks who help one another to succeed. Their children are all over achievers and contributors to society.
Whenever I see people hard at work chances are they are Mexicans.
This country has prospered because of the contributions of wave upon wave of hard working immigrants.

 

[Traditio]

Yay scientific racism is alive and well. :noid:

Strictly speaking, I don't think that his claim is racist. It sounds racist, but in the strictest sense, it's not racist. The claim isn't that all Mexicans are stupid and are likely to destroy America, or that Mexicans genetically are predisposed to be stupid and destroy America.

What he seems to be saying is that the vast majority of the Mexicans who are immigrating to America are stupid. This seems plausible: immigrants tend to be poor, and poor people tend to be stupid. Like tends to generate like. Poor, stupid parents tend to beget poor, stupid children.

So if you have an influx of poor, stupid, unskilled people (Mexican or otherwise) into the country, people who are likely to generate poor, stupid, unskilled children...how can this not have serious consequences for the country?

I think that his analysis is just spot on. He should have stood his ground.

 

[Traditio]

An anecdotal response is here offered:
My daughter-in-law is a graduate of Baylor University and holds a position of some responsibility at USAA. one of her sisters also holds a B.A. and another sister recently completed her Masters requirements. They are a family of six children all of whom work and contribute to society. Her only brother is a Master Sergeant in the Marine Corps. Her parents are very humble hard working people recently retired. I suspect, had her mother been given the opportunity to be educated at a higher level she would have graduated with honors. The woman is a genius and is self-taught in many areas.
One of my nieces is married to a Mexican from a family of hard working folks who help one another to succeed. Their children are all over achievers and contributors to society.
Whenever I see people hard at work chances are they are Mexicans.
This country has prospered because of the contributions of wave upon wave of hard working immigrants.

Bybee, with all due respect, I think that this kind of "anecdotal evidence" misses the point, as per my post above.

 

[bybee]

Bybee, with all due respect, I think that this kind of "anecdotal evidence" misses the point, as per my post above.

You are correct. I thought about that after I posted.
Sorry for that.
I would agree that whoever permitted his thesis statement as acceptable is really the one in error here.
One can set about to prove almost anything.
Some 16,000,000 or so human beings died as a result of Word War II
Adolph Hitler set out to prove the supremacy of the Aryan race by exterminating Gypsies, mental defectives and Jews. He also slaughtered thousands of Slavs but felt they could be allowed to live because though they were an inferior people they made good workers.
The method he chose affected the goal he achieved. He did not prove the supremacy of the Aryan race but rather that all men are capable of the utmost depravity when they achieve absolute power over their fellow men.

 

[Traditio]

You are correct. I thought about that after I posted.
Sorry for that.
I would agree that whoever permitted his thesis statement as acceptable is really the one in error here.

Yes, I did say more or less this in the OP. I was being sarcastic. Academic research shouldn't be subject to popular opinions/sentiments.

The reason why I say that your anecdotal evidence misses the point is because, as far as I can see, that's not what he's talking about. Of course there are smart Mexicans. There are doctors, philosophers, scientists...you get the idea. Some of those smart Mexicans are immigrants. Some immigrants are smart Mexicans.

I don't think that anybody denies this. I personally know some educated, skilled Mexicans. One either is or is going to be an immigrant (she is a medical doctor); the other is a dual citizen (he's in a Ph.D. program for philosophy).

But that's not what's at issue. What's at issue is what's broadly the case. What are most Mexican immigrants like? I'll give you a hint: they aren't doctors and rocket scientists.

Some 16,000,000 or so human beings died as a result of Word War II

So what? I strongly suspect that this is the underlying reason why there's such an outcry when anything even remotely racist-sounding arises in Academia. "What? You're saying that this group of people is inferior in some respect to this other group? YOU ARE PROMOTING GENOCIDE!"

Well...false. Doesn't follow.

The fact that people think like this only shows that most people are dumb and should have no say whatsoever in what happens either in politics or in Academia.

 

[bybee]

Yes, I did say more or less this in the OP. I was being sarcastic. Academic research shouldn't be subject to popular opinions/sentiments.

The reason why I say that your anecdotal evidence misses the point is because, as far as I can see, that's not what he's talking about. Of course there are smart Mexicans. There are doctors, philosophers, scientists...you get the idea. Some of those smart Mexicans are immigrants. Some immigrants are smart Mexicans.

I don't think that anybody denies this. I personally know some educated, skilled Mexicans. One either is or is going to be an immigrant (she is a medical doctor); the other is a dual citizen (he's in a Ph.D. program for philosophy).

But that's not what's at issue. What's at issue is what's broadly the case. What are most Mexican immigrants like? I'll give you a hint: they aren't doctors and rocket scientists.



So what? I strongly suspect that this is the underlying reason why there's such an outcry when anything even remotely racist-sounding arises in Academia. "What? You're saying that this group of people is inferior in some respect to this other group? YOU ARE PROMOTING GENOCIDE!"

Well...false. Doesn't follow.

The fact that people think like this only shows that most people are dumb and should have no say whatsoever in what happens either in politics or in Academia.

And you didn't get my point that wave upon wave of immigrants came to America for the CHANCE to make a better life for themselves and their children. By the third generation they did just that!
When the waves of Irish immigrants hit our shores they were treated like dogs. Notre Dame University came into being because the posh eastern colleges wouldn't allow Irish students any access to their hallowed halls.
Bright people, given the opportunity will rise to the top.

 

[annabenedetti]

The fact that people think like this only shows that most people are dumb and should have no say whatsoever in what happens either in politics or in Academia.

I hope you don't get a chance to spew this stuff in academia.

 

[Traditio]

I hope you don't get a chance to spew this stuff in academia.

It's not my point:

"And our philosopher follows the same analogy - he is like a plant which, having proper nurture, must necessarily grow and mature into all virtue, but, if sown and planted in an alien soil, becomes the most noxious of all weeds, unless he be preserved by some divine power. Do you really think, as people so often say, that our youth are corrupted by Sophists, or that private teachers of the art corrupt them in any degree worth speaking of? Are not the public who say these things the greatest of all Sophists? And do they not educate to perfection young and old, men and women alike, and fashion them after their own hearts?

When is this accomplished? he said.

When they meet together, and the world sits down at an assembly, or in a court of law, or a theatre, or a camp, or in any other popular resort, and there is a great uproar, and they praise some things which are being said or done, and blame other things, equally exaggerating both, shouting and clapping their hands, and the echo of the rocks and the place in which they are assembled redoubles the sound of the praise or blame - at such a time will not a young man's heart, as they say, leap within him? Will any private training enable him to stand firm against the overwhelming flood of popular opinion? or will he be carried away by the stream? Will he not have the notions of good and evil which the public in general have - he will do as they do, and as they are, such will he be.

Yes, Socrates; necessity will compel him.
And yet, I said, there is a still greater necessity, which has not been mentioned.

What is that?
The gentle force of attainder or confiscation or death which, as you are aware, these new Sophists and educators who are the public, apply when their words are powerless.

Indeed they do; and in right good earnest.
Now what opinion of any other Sophist, or of any private person, can be expected to overcome in such an unequal contest?

None, he replied.

No, indeed, I said, even to make the attempt is a great piece of folly; there neither is, nor has been, nor is ever likely to be, any different type of character which has had no other training in virtue but that which is supplied by public opinion - I speak, my friend, of human virtue only; what is more than human, as the proverb says, is not included: for I would not have you ignorant that, in the present evil state of governments, whatever is saved and comes to good is saved by the power of God, as we may truly say." (Republic 491e-493a).

 

[Traditio]

And you didn't get my point that wave upon wave of immigrants came to America for the CHANCE to make a better life for themselves and their children.

Again, this begs the question: "So what?" I don't think that this point is disputed. The sole question is whether most Mexican immigrants are unskilled and have lower IQs than white people.

This is an empirical question, not a normative one.

Is this true or not?

If it is true, is it also true of their children? Their grandchildren?

 

[Buzzword]

He should be able to say whatever in his dissertation, as long as he supports it with objective evidence and sound reasoning.

Free speech, after all.
That much should be obvious, especially given the hellish nature of most dissertation defenses.

The problem we face in this country is not that some immigrants come in with little or no skills or education, but that far too many businesses act to KEEP THEM THAT WAY, in order to exploit them for profit.

And the general public just plays along, because we like being able to afford eating at Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Chili's, Outback, Macaroni Grill, Johnny Carino's, Applebee's, Jason's Deli, Texas Roadhouse, Red Robin, Dave and Buster's................
"Mas pan por favor!"

And we like getting our lawns mowed for cheap.

 

[annabenedetti]

It's not my point:

It is your point. You've recently admitted you still have racist tendencies. You support the premise that Mexicans are dumb. I'll grant that you go on to extend that to "most people," but it only makes your ideas look all the more ludicrous.

 

[Traditio]

It is your point. You've recently admitted you still have racist tendencies. You support the premise that Mexicans are dumb. I'll grant that you go on to extend that to "most people," but it only makes your ideas look all the more ludicrous.

I didn't say that Mexicans (simpliciter) are dumb. They may or may not be, but I didn't say one way or the other. What I said is that the scholar who resigned said that most Mexican immigrants are dumb (have lower IQs than the average white person), poor and unskilled, and that I'm inclined to agree (in large part, that's why they're immigrating).

Presumably, you disagree with this.

But what is the basis of your disagreement? Is it scientific? Based on facts?

Note that the link doesn't say that the scholar resigned because his claims were disproven and he couldn't stand the thought of being a heritage scholar when he was clearly a bad scholar. He didn't resign because of bad scholarship.

He resigned because his opinions were unpopular and lots of people were angry at him.

This is why most people are dumb and should have no say in politics or Academia. Most people are guided by personal opinion and personal feeling. They aren't guided by reasoned facts.

 

[annabenedetti]

The sole question is whether most Mexican immigrants are unskilled and have lower IQs than white people.

Unskilled is not the same as having a lower IQ.

 

[Traditio]

Unskilled is not the same as having a lower IQ.

I'm not saying that it is. Being unskilled/uneducated is one thing. Having a lower IQ is another thing. According to the scholar, both hold true of many (if not most) Mexican immigrants.

Again, you may not like this. You may really, really want to disagree with this.

But on what grounds?

Do you have statistics/surveys which lead to opposite conclusions? Are you familiar with scholarly research that brings this into discredit?

 

[The Glory Land]

This makes no sense. They are criticizing this guy over a dissertation that he wrote at Harvard. If this guy deserves to resign, then so does his dissertation board (3-4 Ph.D.'s who read and approved the dissertation), as well as the administrators who gave him the Ph.D. based on the approval of his dissertation. What, that's retarded? Because dissertations involve a high degree of scholarship? We shouldn't be concerned about popular vs. unpopular opinions when we're doing academic research? We should let the facts be facts and face them as they come? I agree. And the facts are pretty clear to me.

Link

"A Heritage Foundation scholar has resigned after a firestorm erupted over his 2009 dissertation alleging Hispanics do not have 'IQ parity with whites' and that Hispanic immigrants to the United States will have 'low-IQ children and grandchildren'...Richwine’s Harvard University dissertation, written before his employment at Heritage, asserted that an influx of 'low-IQ' immigrants coming to the country would result in 'a lack of socioeconomic assimilation among low-IQ immigrant groups, more underclass behavior, less social trust, and an increase in the proportion of unskilled workers in the American labor market.' 'No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against,' Richwine wrote."

But you can not live without their Taco's... :chuckle:

 

[annabenedetti]

Again, you may not like this. You may really, really want to disagree with this.

And you may really, really want to agree with it, yes?

Do you have statistics/surveys which lead to opposite conclusions? Are you familiar with scholarly research that brings this into discredit?

I haven't looked. Have you? Or do you accept this without question?

 

[Traditio]

And you may really, really want to agree with it, yes?

That's just it, though. Our personal predispositions/prejudices should be irrelevent.

I'm just saying: don't you think that it's screwed up that a scholar ended up having to resign over this? Not because of bad scholarship, but because of the personal opinions and feelings of the uneducated mob which is the American public.

I haven't looked. Have you? Or do you accept this without question?

The claim appeared in a Harvard dissertation. We can always start there.

Edit: In the event that you didn't know, writing a dissertation is kind of a big thing.

 

[bybee]

Again, this begs the question: "So what?" I don't think that this point is disputed. The sole question is whether most Mexican immigrants are unskilled and have lower IQs than white people.

This is an empirical question, not a normative one.

Is this true or not?

If it is true, is it also true of their children? Their grandchildren?

Unskilled at what? Survival?
Is there an IQ test that is fair given the cultural differences?
What if "most white people" were subjected to the life style of the average Mexican? Would it make a difference in IQ level?
You haven't lived enough nor have you loved enough to be qualified to even pose the question.

Of course that has never stopped you from making an unmitigated *** of yourself.