What happens when we die?
Throughout this debate, there have been a lot of things said and suggested by Universalists and others, the Bible is very plain about what happens after we die.
Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
When an unbeliever dies they face judgment.
That is it. There are no more opportunities to repent after death.
Further proof:
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 shows us that when Christians die we go right to be with the Lord:
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Stephen,
You said:
Logos_x}
“See...I think that God is smart enough to at least understand that if He is going to save
mankind said:
My answer:
God made a way out for sinful man to be saved through His Son Jesus Christ. God didn’t have to do that at all! He decided to do it as a result of man’s sin and His love for mankind. There is a big clue in Scripture about why the Lake of Fire was originally created. It states it was created for the Devil and his angels. That was its original purpose. But then man sinned and rebelled against God. This made man’s condemnation the same as that of the devil. You can tell God
not to create a permanent death or hell all you want to, but He is God and that is what He did! That much is obvious, even to my feeble mind. :dizzy:
Kevin,
I'm not telling God not to create a permanent Hell...It's God telling us that He didn't!
In my view, Christ came to destroy all the works of the adversary!
Also, the "eternal" fire, as a description of DURATION rather than it's source, is in question...is it not?
Just because it was "created for the Devil and his angels"...that does not make it never ending. Until this issue is resolved, it is not sufficient evidence that God made a permanent Hell.
It is my contention that He didn't create one, nor does He intend to, and the BIBLE says just that. If God was on trial for creating one, I don't believe you have sufficient evidence to get a conviction on Him.
That has been my contention from the beginning of this Battle...that He hasn't and won't create an permanent Hell...rather one that destroys evil. And, even though you and the believers in eternal torment THINK you have answered the issue...you haven't in a way that is indisputable.
The reason is...you can't. I'm not even sure why you would want to.
PastorKevin said:
The tree of life:
If man had been allowed to continue eating from the tree of life, he would have physically lived forever without dying. This could no longer be allowed because God had decreed that death would be a result of man’s sin. This is why God told Adam if he ate of the fruit he would die. And that death was not just a physical death but also a
spiritual one. Do you realize that without the glorious sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ that not ONE SINGLE PERSON would ever be able to escape eternal torment in the Lake of Fire? This is because that death is what we have each earned due to our sin!
I believe it does much more than just that Kevin. It literally stops a permanent misery from coming into existence. Surely you can see the logic behind this view.
I believe your view limits God's purposes too severely. The scriptural teaching itself does not limit it to merely the body at all. This limitation is imposed by the doctrine of eternal torment itself...not by the teaching of the Bible.
Job 31:2-4
For what is the allotment of God from above, And the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity?
Psalm 36:12
12 There the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise.
Romans 6:23 tells us that the WAGES of sin is DEATH!
I agree!
PastorKevin}Because of sin we have [U said:
all EARNED death[/U]. (Me included!) This is why we die physically and if we do not accept God’s atoning sacrifice for our sins found in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, we will also die spiritually by spending all eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Again...my argument has been that it isn't permanent, and I've presented why I believe this is true, and the scriptural support for it.
I won't presume that this was not read. So I won't repeat what I have already argued.
The answer to this is in my previous posts.
PastorKevin said:
All or FEW?
Look with me at the following passage from Luke 13:22-28
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
Now this is a plain question. They were beginning to understand exactly what he was saying.
Only a few actually will exercise saving faith because of the stubbornness and pride of men who are not willing to repent of their sins. Now look at what the Lord says:
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
No. The Lord is not a liar.
Here is something to consider.
Salvation for the Jews was their participation in the Kingdom of Mesiah. Few will enter that Kingdom Age. It is this...not eternity...that our Savior was refering to.
Those that are Christ's are resurrected long before the rest of humanity, when the Lord returns. The rest remain dead during that Kingdom Age.
In another portion of scripture, we have this statement by our Lord as well...
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel go go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
(Mat 19:23-30)
There are many facets to salvation...and many of those facets have a whole lot to do with AGES to come, Kevin. What is impossible for us IS possible for God.
Paul describes THE END like this...
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:26-28)
What I am saying is that THIS is where everything is headed...and it might take eons to get there, and during some of those eons not everyone gets to be a part of what God is doing and instead suffer the touchstoning...but in THE END...God ALL IN ALL. That means "Hell" is NOT permanent, but Age-during. There is NO WAY AROUND THIS and have
everything in the Bible say what it says and mean what it says!
PastorKevin Question #15: Is Jesus a liar? Will all be saved as uiversalism tries to assert? Or is Jesus correct when He says many will seek to enter and will not be able?
LogosA-PKQ15: Apparently my arguments have not hit their mark.
We are dealing with various AGES here, not a permanent Hell.
PastorKevin Question #16: Is the gate narrow? Jesus also said the way to life is very narrow! IS the way to life narrow and only a few find it as Jesus says in John?
LogosA-PKQ16: Many do not find it. This does not mean they will NEVER find it.
Many do not get in during this life. They do not get in during this age, nor in the age to come (the Millenium) these remain dead until AFTER the Millenial reign of Christ. Many will yet be sent to the "second death" afterward...but this to is not a "final judgement" from which no one emerges.
The LAST enemy to be DESTROYED is death, Kevin. AFTER all things are brought into subjection. Have you considered why it is LAST?
PastorKevin said:
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
The Lord is clearly illustrating what judgment day will be like. They will be turned away because they do not KNOW the Lord!
I agree...that is why they are turned away. This doesn't mean that this is the last we see of them. They are banished...but not forever.
Again...you are not addressing the solution to the theological problem I'm showing you. I'm saying we are dealing with times, eons, ages..."That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."
(Eph 1:10-12)
Somehow the church has lost sight of this...and the reason is the doctrine of eternal torment.
PastorKevin Question #17: Is this passage true? Will many try to get into Heaven under false pretenses and not be let in because they do not know Christ? IF Universalism is true and all are saved, why are they turned away by the Lord in this illustration?
LogosA-PKQ17: They are turned away...but not for all eternity.
I really thought my arguments were clear enough for this to be seen.
My goodness Kevin...A child could understand it!
You sound like you believe that if there was no permanent Hell...then there is no Gospel!
Surely that is not what you are trying to say...in fact I'm quite certain it isn't...but it would help your case if you made an argument that has some bearing on our differences.
PastorKevin}[I said:
26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ [/I]
This is again just talking about doing good works and serving Christ. These people were depending on their works to save them!
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’
Though these people were doing things they thought would get them to Heaven, Christ calls them workers of iniquity and tells them flat out to depart. In laymen’s terms He is saying “Get lost!”
Departing from God is also being out of the presence of God. The worst aspect of the Lake of Fire is the eternal separation from God and not the tormenting fire!
Kevin, I know what eternal torment says. I was taught it for the majority of my Christian
walk. I couldn't see past it either.
Again, when you have the word of God correctly translated all these problems you are trying to present are no longer an issue in the sense of them being an ETERNAL problem that God cannot or will not resolve.
PastorKevin}[I said:
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.[/I]
Notice the statement there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is a very clear description of Hell that is used in the New Testament to describe what Hell will be like! It is a place of devastating torment, and according the Bible lasts forever and ever!
:sigh: No, Kevin, the BIBLE does NOT say forever and ever.
Why do we even need an "ever" added to "forever" anyway?
We, again, are dealing with TIME..not eternity. Eons, ages...not timelessness.
Until people who teach eternal torment acknowledge this, there is really no point in discussing anything...because you end up in a lie and being caught up in a deception.
Period!
Now in our talks about Greek you repeatedly try to take away the eternal meaning in the words which are translated eternal. I have shown you time and again how those words consistently mean eternal. Well here we have a Hebrew word that means everlasting. It is the word “Olam” and it means everlasting here. Just as it does in the following places:
Genesis 21:33 It is used to describe God as the “everlasting God”
Jeremiah 10:10: It describes God as the “everlasting King”
Isaiah 9:6: He is called the “Everlasting Father”
(These are a small few uses of the word, there are loads of others!)
See again my OPENING about this issue..it has already been answered, and answering it again will be a waste of space and my time if you can't comprehend what I'm saying anyway.
PastorKevin Question #18: Is God an everlasting God? Is He an everlasting King?
Is He the everlasting Father?
LogosA-PKQ18: Yes...He is everlasting BUT NOT BECAUSE OLAM OR AION MEAN EVERLASTING!
Is the everlasting God not
also the God of the Ages?
I really don't understand how it is you can't see this. It is quite clear.
PastorKevin said:
If you said "yes" to these questions, then the wicked will awake to everlasting contempt!
I already explained this, too, Kevin. If the words in question do not mean what you say they mean...(and they don't) it would be wrong to translate them in ways in which they do mean what you say they mean.
Comprende'?
You cannot pick and choose! Just as you cannot pick and choose when and where you want Aion and the words that come from it to mean eternal!
Exactly! I NEVER do. I NEVER translate these words ETERNAL.
NEVER DO, Kevin...they always mean the exact same thing
as far as the way they are translated. AGE or EON!
MANY BIBLES DO THIS!
Why? Because these are the same kinds of words that is in the Hebrew or the Greek...an undetermined TIME.
SIMPLE...it isn't complicated.
If the word means age it should be translated age.
If it means "pertaining to an age" as aionion and aionios do...that what we should have in our BIBLES.
If the duration is determined by the association when using aion in the original texts...and the same is true in English when using "age" or "eon"...there is NO NEED TO TRANSLATE IT DIFFERENTLY ANYWHERE because the words ARE the same as in the Hebrew and the Greek.
Here is what has happened: Universalism has come along and redefined words in the Bible in order to support its false teaching. They change words to mean what they want them to mean! Everlasting contempt destroys the false teachings of Universalism and Annihilationism. If the contempt is everlasting, they don’t get out and they don’t burn up.
The OPPOSITE is true Kevin! The Doctrine of Eternal Torment came along and redefined words in the BIBLE in order to support it's false teaching.
I, for one, would appreciate it if you would not misrepresent these particular facts.
In response to my question #7 you agreed and said Yes that Jesus is telling the truth. The same verbage Jesus uses in the verse I quoted leading up to that question (John 6:47) is used by Jesus in regards to everlasting punishment. It’s the same word used exactly the same way! So if you agree that Jesus is telling the truth about eternal life, why do you deny what HE ALSO CLEARLY SAYS ABOUT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?
It is the Life of the Ages Jesus was talking about here...and the Punishment of the Ages.
In neither place does "of the ages" mean "eternal".
In this verse he wasn't saying eternal in regards to either in fact He NEVER DOES...it is aionion life and eonion judgement.
Does this mean we do not live forever? Not at all! That would simply be an overreaction.
Look at it this way: If you have enough water to get to the well, do you die of thirst when
you get to the well? Not likely. The same is true with salvation.
There is this age we are in Kevin, in which only a few, like you and me, participate in God's Kingdom. Soon, all that are Christ's at His return will be raised...and we participate in a Kingdom Age where Jesus Himself rules. Few, still, participate during that future age....they are NOT raised from the dead. At the end of that age, everyone who has lived are raised to life and judged, some to life, some to "second" death.
But...in the end...which still has not been reached even then...Death is obliterated completely, and in the end it's God all in all...that, we know, is eons away. This is why death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed.
When death is destroyed it no longer exists.
It's really quite simple, Kevin.
My question #8 was:
Will Satan and the fallen angels be in Heaven for all eternity? If so, by WHAT means will they get there? Please cite the Scripture verse that refutes them being in the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Please show where Salvation that is found in the God man, Jesus Christ, is also open to fallen angels and Satan. How could Christ the God-Man pay a penalty for the sins of angels?
You said:
LogosX said:
I don’t know. I see two possibilities. Either Satan and the fallen angels are
totally obliterated, or they cease to be in opposition to God’s will.
Stephen this is barely a response my friend. I am glad you were big enough to admit that you don’t know. And if you had left it there, it would have been a more sufficient answer.
But you continue on and say they are either totally obliterated-yet you give no Scripture to support that which I clearly asked for.
The Bible plainly says they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and there they will be forever and ever. I listed a long list of verses in which contain the statement: “
Eis tous aionas ton ainon” and how it is translated all 18 times to mean forever and ever.
Included in that is a very clear reference to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.
Every time it is used it means
forever and ever, INCLUDING when it refers to the corment of the wicked being
day and night forever and ever. That is a very clear statement in Scripture. In order to prove your point you would need to supply some Scripture that refutes this, and you did not and have not. It is because NO SUCH SCRIPTURE EXISTS my friend.
I continue to say that "forever and ever" is an English idiom that is not accurate as a translation of the Greek involved. It is properly "unto the age of the ages", which, like
King of Kings and Lord of Lords... refers to the greater of multiple ages...and reflect limited duration, not eternity.
To do so again would simply fall on already resistant ears, no doubt.
Nothing has been presented that can change the meaning of the words involved, in spite of the best efforts of anyone. That, in my opinion, makes my case the stronger one.
Secondly in your response you say they
LogosX said:
“cease to be in opposition to God’s will”.
If that is the case, WHAT PAYS FOR THEIR SIN?
Without the shed blood of Jesus Christ there is
no remission for sins. As my question plainly stated, and I will restate again: HOW COULD CHRIST THE GOD-MAN PAY A PENALTY FOR THE SIN OF ANGELS?
With God all things are possible Kevin. I'm not going to limit His ability to redeem whatever He chooses to redeem.
Jesus Christ did not shed his blood for mankind only, but for all creation (see Rom.
8:20-21). There are also "spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12). Colossians 1:16-20 proves that all creation, "whether those on the earth or those in the heavens,"
will be in Christ. That is good enough for me.
PastorKevin Question #19: Please cite the Scripture verse that shows that the blood of Christ was shed for the sins of angels. Please show even ONE SINGLE VERSE that clearly shows fallen angels repenting of their sins or having their sins forgiven, and by what means they obtain forgiveness, or else concede that no such verse exists for goodness sakes.
LogosA-PKQ19: You see it as impossible. I don't. This is because I see punishments as purposful and not an end in themselves.
I concede nothing.
Now, again, with God all things are possible, and see my answer to the previous.
My question #11 was: If a person doesn’t repent, can his sins be forgiven by the Lord anyway?
Your answer:
Here is what the Bible says:
Isaiah 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.
Sin is such an awful offense to God that it separates us from Him. Man is by his very nature sinful and thus separated from God. This is what led Christ to come and sacrifice His life for us, so that we can have that gap of separation that exists between man and God closed!
John the Baptist and Jesus BOTH came preaching
repentance right from the very beginning of their ministries. Jesus said in
Luke 13:3-
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Repent or perish is what Jesus said. Not me, but Jesus Christ Himself!
Jesus says a person must repent or perish. Universalism says their sins are already forgiven even BEFORE they repent? Once again, Universalism is shown to be false teaching when it is compared to the Word of God!
My argument is that repentence does not make it happen, Kevin. It IS so...this is what is to be believed...that Christ's sacrifice removed all sin. Believeing that IS repentance, conversion, etc.,
He was there all the time...we were just blind to it. We believe what is already done, and come to Him...that is METANOIA...accepting something previously thought untrue. Metanioa in English is "repentance".
My argument is not against repentance...it is with what you say produces salvation.
Repentance is one of many benifits of salvation. And, if you really look at what I've said without having in mind a means whereby to argue against it, you would realize what I've actually said. In the heat of battle, we sometimes argue against things that we have not understood, rather than what is actually said. I understand that. This kind of debate isn't
easy to do, and when you're "on a mission"...we sometimes set about formulating an argument just to formulate an argument.
Do you believe that there is no Gospel without an eternal Hell? You probably don't if you are pinned down. And yet, you have chosen to argue that the Gospel hinges upon an eternal Hell to be saved from, and this in itself has made you say some things that you will one day regret saying.
I know that much is true in my case.
I will address what you said was the “One thing that really, really bothers me”:
Jesus is divine! Jesus is God!
Jesus is the eternal, divine Son of the Living God. He is co-equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and has been for all eternity. Your question is best answered by understanding that when Jesus was hanging on the cross, He was man, but He was also God. He was (and is) the God-Man. When He gave His life, He paid the penalty for our sins. He bore the punishment that you and I deserved on that Cross. That is why He does not have to be in torment forever and ever. The torment He took on that cross was eternal at that time! This is what allows us to fully understand the atonement! He became a “curse for us”(Gal. 3:13).
Jesus is eternal, thus He was able to pay an eternal penalty in a finite period of time!
Again...you state the teaching of eternal torment and it's take on all those things. Of course you would.
I have provided the premise of Ultimate salvation...and because it is a different interpretation of the veryy same scriptural data concerning punishment you think it is false, and that I don't uderstand the Gospel message.
It's different alright...perhaps you should consider that the interpretation of these things
as provided by eternal torment is wrong.
Just a thought.
Now, I believe that the death of this divine Jesus was sufficient to take away the sins of the world and will also be sufficient to save the world...I mean REALLY save it.
Eternal torment and annihilationism says that it won't really save THE WORLD.
And then says that BECAUSE of the very doctrine you are trying to defend...and ONLY because of it.
Answering The Questions:
PKA-LogosQ13: The answer is in the text. And it is no. Let’s look at it, but
first let’s get something straight: Judgment is something that is forced upon us. Judgment is not something that someone generally seeks after. What is a gift? A gift is something that is freely given, and not forced. By the theology of Universalism, the free gift of salvation is not a gift, it is forced.