Not So Fast There My Slippery Futurist Friend
Not So Fast There My Slippery Futurist Friend
Well, well, well, it is very
interesting what Jerry has implicitly
conceded, and that is that
IF “this generation” is taken to mean a “generation” in the normal ordinary sense of “contemporaries,” then my position is
undeniably correct. This is true
even if one tries to claim that “this generation” does not necessarily mean the generation living when Jesus spoke, but the generation that would see the signs He spoke of, because the
ONE UNREPEATABLE event (the destruction of the Temple and city that
then existed) has already happened, thus absolutely thrusting the time frame of “this generation” into the first century. Ouch. :kiss:
Now before I completely dismantle (over the next few posts) Jerry’s assertion that “genea” in
Matthew 24:34 should be more appropriately understood as “race,” let me once again point out the
absolutely painful corner that Jerry has painted himself into. He has not and of course
CANNOT deny that the Temple that was prophesied to be destroyed was the Temple
THEN standing. BUT…. Jesus ties that destruction (and the destruction of the city which
then existed) in with the “abomination of desolation” in
Daniel 9:26 and 12:11 making it
irrefutable that the there is NO future Temple prophesied to be rebuilt.
Without this future Temple, the whole futurist house of cards comes tumbling down. There is then
NO seven year treaty made by the antichrist who then desecrates the Temple and breaks the treaty halfway through. Jesus makes it crystal clear that Temple and the city that were to be destroyed were the ones that
THEN existed. All Jerry has done with his textual gerrymandering is to attempt to extend out the timeframe for the fulfillment of the
REST of those things into the indefinite future rather than limiting it to a single generation. Unfortunately for him, the text once again silences him. Let’s just look at a few shall we?
Jerry admits that
Luke 21:20-24 is about AD70 and tries futilely to deny through starkly naked circular reasoning that
Matthew 24:15-21 is speaking about the same event. However, capitalizing only on the part that Jerry has conceded is about AD70,
Luke 21:31 makes it clear that
ALL of these events (i.e.
Luke 21:5-31 – which also includes the destruction of the
first century Temple) are to take place within a relatively short time span because Jesus said that once “you see
ALL these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is
NEAR.” Now
Luke 21:20-24 (and the destruction of the first century Temple) is
ONE of all these things.
We moderns CAN NEVER see that happening and know that anything is NEAR. That EVENT is nonrepeatable and
long past. Jerry can’t even beg out for some kind of “double-fulfillment” because not only is it NONREPEATABLE, Luke describes it as the days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jewish people, NOT deliverance (which is why Jerry HAS to admit it is about AD70). So, the text makes it clear that ALL of these things will happen in such a short proximity to each other that it is possible to see ALL of them happening and know that a great eschatological triumph is NEAR. Ouch. :kiss: Futurism is gored on yet another time text so I guess it ain’t quite true that
Dee Dee´s complete argument is based on the idea that the word "generation" can ONLY mean a "the whole multitude of men living at the same time".
Now beginning on Jerry’s Explaining Away Option B for “this generation.” He claims warrant for interpreting “this generation” as “this race” in
Matthew 23:36. I am sorry but that is sloppy exegesis and a complete dismissal of OT background for Jesus’ words. Jerry claims that since the Pharisees and scribes did not personally murder Zechariah then the phrase “this generation” means something broader than just the first century audience. Wow, I show hope Jerry put on a ‘chute before he made that leap. How do you get from implying that “you” may be broader than just “them” to transferring that meaning to “this generation”? How indeed. A careful reading of the text with the OT firmly in mind shows just how wrongheaded Jerry’s reasoning is.
Matthew 23 is the record of Jesus’ calling down seven woes upon the first century scribes and Pharisees. It is undeniably talking about
them (using the personal pronoun “you” dozens of times) NOT unbelieving Jews of all time. Beginning in
verse 31 it gets
really personal with Jesus telling them that they are witnesses against themselves that they are sons of their murderous “fathers.” Jesus then tells them to
“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.” (
verse 32) Note that phrase very carefully. Jesus declares THEM guilty of their father’s crimes which includes the murder of all the righteous blood upon the earth. Because he has declared them guilty (and there is no doubt there that He is speaking of THEM), Jesus then lays to their charge the actual murders. In saying that “you murdered Zechariah” Jesus is restating what he already said… that they have filled up the measure of their father’s guilt. Their father’s guilt is theirs. Their father’s crimes are theirs. Jerry in his obfuscation has laid the guilt of the ages upon unbelieving Jews of
ALL TIME, instead of the unique generation that Jesus said would “fill up” those iniquities because the murder of Him would be the greatest of all crimes. It was THEM that filled up on the measure of their father’s guilt, not my unbelieving Jewish next door neighbor Murray Goldstein.
Jerry claims some heavy gun support for his spindoctoring of “this generation” by insinuating that the Greek scholar Thayer concurs. Jerry would have done better to check what Thayer
actually said then just barfing up the Scofield Reference Bible. :doh: Thayer on page 112 of his lexicon defines “genea” as
”the whole multitude of men living at the same time” and cites
Matthew 24:34 as an example of such!! Ouch. Arndt and Gingrich concur and also cite
Matthew 24:34 in support and affirmatively disapprove of the notion of it meaning “race” in that verse. The lexicons are overwhelmingly on my side as evidenced by the fact that NO major Bible version translates that verse as “race” in the text, and believe me, that is not because they are eager to throw preterists a bone. The heavy hitters of futurism have abandoned this idea en masse (i.e. Ice, Lindsey, Smith) as bankrupt. And check for yourself, here are ALL the other places that “genea” is used in the Gospels,
Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32. In each and every time it means generation in the ordinary sense of the word. You see, the Greek language has a perfectly good word for “race,” it is “genos,” which is the word Peter used in
1 Peter 2:9, but that is NOT the word that Jesus used, though He certainly could have if “race” is what He meant.
Consider the utter inanity that Jerry’s position puts in the mouth of Christ. Jerry agrees that Jesus is prophesying concerning the Jewish people. And then in a dramatic statement opening with
“Most assuredly I say to you,” what does Jesus say?? Drum roll please……..
“The Jewish race will not pass away until all these things happen to the Jewish race.” Huh?? That is nonsense and is a complete tautological truism, a
reductio ad absurdum.. Remember the disciples asked Jesus
when would these things be. Jerry has Jesus completely ignoring their question and giving a prediction that even Benny Hinn could get right. Wait a minute, I’m feeling prophetic….. “Most assuredly I say to TOL, TOL will remain online until it goes offline.”
Now whenever it gets too hot in the NT kitchen for Jerry he likes to trot out selected portions of the OT. We can get to that, but he needs to deal with what the NT
actually says as the NT is the authorative interpreter of the Old. He is simply asserting “yeah but” statements. That don’t impress me much. It seems like Jerry doesn’t want to answer my previous question of:
“When YHWH saddle up ole Gabriel and ride into Dodge on a cloud to save David (Psalm 18:9-12) and then later perform Part Two by popping a wheelie on a cumulous into Egypt and started kicking over idols (Is 19:1).” Instead he asks:
And if His words do not mean that there will be actual signs in the heavens,His words must have another meaning.Perhaps Dee Dee will tell us what His words mean.
Sure I will, when Jerry tells me when the sun and moon were darkened when ancient Babylon and Egypt were judged (
Isaiah 13:9-10; Ezekiel 32:7-8)and when the host of heaven was dissolved in the judgment upon ancient Edom (
Isaiah 34:4-5). And while he’s at it, he can throw in
Matthew 16:27-28.